[Last Daze]

The evil of amillennialism is that it steals God's Word from God's people (and therefore undermines their faith) under the guise of "non-literal fulfillment." They do not believe that God will do what He said He would do. They believe He will do something different - and in some cases exactly the opposite - of what He said He would do and just call it that. Thus, they are NOT Bible believers. And to crown the irony, they have the gall to call this "spiritual".

*sigh* How I long for some perspective on these matters.

Roger - I know a great many amillennials, all of whom are fine evangelical Christians who love the Lord and revere the Scriptures. They are definitely Bible believers. They just differ with you over interpretation of the Bible. Not only that, but your argumentation is fatally flawed. God has often fulfilled prophecy in ways that were unexpected and did not fit the "literal" interpretations of many who read the writings and claimed to be experts in their interpretation. For example, the way in which Jesus fulfilled many of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the coming of the Kingdom of God were frequently at odds with the traditional understanding of such things in His own day. Does that mean those prophecies were any LESS fulfilled simply because they were fulfilled in unexpected ways? Was Jesus wrong when He cast out demons and then declared "the Kingdom of God has come upon you (literally: "is in your midst")? Of course not. And yet, I am quite sure the Scribes of His day saw this as a rather odd "kingdom" indeed.

Preterism (which is simply a logical extension of Amill hermaneutics) denies the resurrection of the body.

Joel, I am truly suprised. This is a complete inaccuracy and totally unworthy of your usual careful and even handed treatment of such things. Only FULL preterism (sometimes also called hyper-preterism) denies the resurrection. Indeed, all of us are preterists in our hermeneutic to some degree or another. Take for example the Biblical prophecy "For unto us a Child is born...unto us a Son is given." Presumably you interpret this prophecy in a preterist fashion...ie: as having already been fulfilled in history. Furthermore, as you know, I am a futurist with regard to the millennium. However, even I interpret Matthew 24 as having been at least partially fulfilled in 70 AD. Not only is that consistent with the Biblical context (particularly Luke's version) but it's consistent with history. Please, let's be fair minded here. I can assure you that men like Hank Hanegraaff and Gary DeMar (just to name two prominent preterists) do NOT deny the bodily resurrection. Both men are sound evangelicals who are thoroughly orthodox in their theology. I'm sorry to have to say this, but such misrepresentation is NOT going to move Christian dialog forward on this subject. It is only going to create greater division around this already difficult and heated topic. And it means you become isolated in a little theological vacuum, engaging in incestuous "discussions" only with those who agree with you and affirm you in your interpretations.

Amillennialism redefines the title "Christ" into something the authors of Scripture would call heretical. They also redefine the term "Israel" the same way (which enables a lot of christian anti-semitism - look at things like the liberal Protestant churches divesting from Israel campaign). The logical question is, to what avail is "believing the Bible" if you redefine its words and terms from what the author and the original audience would have understood? Also, both Preterists and Amills (in fact pretty much anyone who is not Premill) have a BIG problem regarding the person of Christ. It is simply not possible to hold to anything except Premill and not deny that Jesus is the Christ. It is inherent in how "Christ" is defined in the Bible. Of course, in order to dodge around the clear Scriptural proscription on denying Jesus is the Christ they simply assign a new definition to the title "Christ" that none of the audiences of the books of the Bible would have understood (in fact, they would likely have rejected it as heresy).

Once again, I am truly flabbergasted by these statements. First of all, it is not just amillennials who interpret the name "Israel" in a covenantal fashion. Historic premillennials and even some progressive dispensationalists also see the name "Israel" in covenantal terms. They feel that biblically, Israel is best understood as including all believers in Christ, be they Jew or Gentile. This is consistent with the clear teaching of Paul in the New Testament epistles, who teaches that we believing Gentiles have been grafted into the Olive Tree, which is always consistently a symbol of Israel. Paul also declares "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Could anything be clearer? To be a member of God's covenant community (Israel) you must be a believer in God's covenant as fulfilled in Christ and His sacrificial atonement. And it is completely unfair to imply that Christians who believe this are anti-Semites. I personally view Israel in covenantal terms. However, like Paul, my heart's desire and prayer for ethnic Israel is that they might be saved and thereby grafted back into the Olive Tree from which they have been excised by God for unbelief.

Also, even though I myself am a futurist, I grew up in an amillennial home. My father was a Baptist minister for almost 40 years before his retirement from the pastorate. But he was an amillennial. And he was NOT anti-Semitic, NOR did he have ANY problem with affirming that Jesus was The Christ. He was completely and soundly orthodox through and through.

Please, by all means let us discuss these and other meaty issues. But let us do so in a charitable and reasonable (and accurate) fashion.

[Admin]

Hi,

I have been offline a while with medical issues, so I will be responding in a somewhat spotty manner.

First off, we are not all Preterists. By definition, Preterism is talking about End Times prophetic events being already fulfilled, not about messianic prophecies of Jesus. Full Preterism says we are already in the eternal state, and partial Preterism basically says everything is done except the return of Christ to usher in the eternal state.

The primary reason for Partial Preterism has nothing to do with biblical exegesis, it is that Full Preterism is explicit heresy in denying the resurrection, and partial Preterists hesitate to take that step. However, when they do so they are not applying their hermaneutic consistently. If they did, they would arrive at Full Preterism.

As to the statements about Amillennialism, they are also on point. The Bible defines Christ specifically as the physical seed of David who will rule the literal nation of Israel from David's literal throne. They absolutely demands a pre-millennial scenario. What happens with Amillennials and others is that biblical terms like "Christ" and "Israel" are redefined in ways that the original audience would never have understood.

As to understanding prophecy, I am sure Roger can speak better to this, but please produce examples from the Bible where a literal prophecy is given and then declared to be fulfilled in the Bible in a non-literal manner. I have never found any such, so there is no biblical reason to accept arguments of literal prophecies being non-literally fulfilled.

[Last Daze]

First off, we are not all Preterists. By definition, Preterism is talking about End Times prophetic events being already fulfilled, not about messianic prophecies of Jesus.

No. That is not correct. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "ahead of" (as a preposition) or "beforehand" (as an adverb), and indicates the belief that a Biblical prophecy of any kind, be it eschatological or otherwise, has already been fulfilled in the past.

Please produce examples from the Bible where a literal prophecy is given and then declared to be fulfilled in the Bible in a non-literal manner. I have never found any such, so there is no biblical reason to accept arguments of literal prophecies being non-literally fulfilled.

Genesis 3:15 - This is the first Old Testament prophecy about Jesus. The serpent was told, "He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel." This is correctly interpreted as a reference to the crucifixion...a spiritual contest between Jesus and Satan...not to a literal contest between Jesus and a literal snake in which the snake bites Jesus on his literal heel.

Malachi 4:5 - This is the last Old Testament Prophecy about Jesus. It says, "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes." Now Jesus said that Elijah had come (Matthew 11:14 Mark 9:13) but Jesus referred to John the Baptizer who was His forerunner. The prophecy did not refer literally to Elijah as the herald of Christ, but figuratively to his antitype...John the Baptizer.

Isaiah 11:4 - "He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Prophecy is full of symbols like this which no one takes literally. Do we imagine that his breath is literally poisonous? Of course we don't. Everybody understands such language to be figurative. Does it speak of a literal judgement? Yes. Absolutely. But will a rod shoot out of Jesus' mouth? Hardly.

Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5. "And my servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd...The sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king". If we really took prophecy literally, then David, not Jesus, will be our king in the Millennium. We all understand that the fulfillment of these prophecies is not literal to the letter. It is generally understood that the name "David" here does not literally mean King David himself. The name stands figuratively for David's descendant Jesus Christ of whom David was the ancestral type. That kind of coded speech is a natural part of prophecy.

Oh, and sorry to revive a dead thread. but this just BEGGED to be answered. :-)

[Joel]

Actually no it did not, and also you have not produced examples. I can't get detailed right now because I am on the road on business and typing on a handheld, but when I get back I will do so.

[Roger Samsel]

Genesis 3:15 - This is the first Old Testament prophecy about Jesus. The serpent was told, "He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel." This is correctly interpreted as a reference to the crucifixion...a spiritual contest between Jesus and Satan...not to a literal contest between Jesus and a literal snake in which the snake bites Jesus on his literal heel.

Only part of it refers to the crucifixion. The Lord's heel was bruised in the crucifixion, but the crushing of the serpent's head is still future. He won't be crushed until Revelation 20:10, which is more than a thousand years in the future.

Malachi 4:5 - This is the last Old Testament Prophecy about Jesus. It says, "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes." Now Jesus said that Elijah had come (Matthew 11:14 Mark 9:13) but Jesus referred to John the Baptizer who was His forerunner. The prophecy did not refer literally to Elijah as the herald of Christ, but figuratively to his antitype...John the Baptizer.

Here's what Jesus said,

10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”
13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. Matthew 17

Jesus spoke of two comings of "Elijah." In Verse 11, he placed the coming of Elijah and the restoration of all things in the future. This was spoken after John had been beheaded. Consequently, there is still a FUTURE forerunner, and according to Malachi 4, it will be Elijah the Tishbite.

In Verse 12, he spoke of John the Baptist, who was NOT Elijah the prophet. He was "the voice of one crying int he wilderness." Both comings of the Lord are preceded by a forerunner.

Isaiah 11:4 - "He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Prophecy is full of symbols like this which no one takes literally. Do we imagine that his breath is literally poisonous? Of course we don't. Everybody understands such language to be figurative. Does it speak of a literal judgement? Yes. Absolutely. But will a rod shoot out of Jesus' mouth? Hardly.

No one here denies the use of symbols. But every symbol has a literal interpretation. The literal interpretation of this is that by His spoken word, the Lord will slay His enemies.

Ezekiel 37:24, Hosea 3:5. "And my servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd...The sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king". If we really took prophecy literally, then David, not Jesus, will be our king in the Millennium. We all understand that the fulfillment of these prophecies is not literal to the letter. It is generally understood that the name "David" here does not literally mean King David himself. The name stands figuratively for David's descendant Jesus Christ of whom David was the ancestral type. That kind of coded speech is a natural part of prophecy.

This on the other hand, is NOT a symbol. We believe that David, the son of Jesse, will literally be resurrected and will reign as king over the 12 tribes of Israel in the Land promised to Jacob's descendents (The Land of Canaan). Jesus Christ will reign over the entire earth from Mount Zion, in Jerusalem.

He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth. Psalm 72:8

[Last Daze]

Actually no it did not, and also you have not produced examples.

Wow bro. Such hostility. Not the Joel or The Berean Council I remember.

Oh well. Perhaps I've been away too long. Sorry if I offended you by posting to this thread. I'll just go away quietly. Again, my apologies. It was not my intention to stir animosity.

[Joel]

Sorry if I sounded hostile. I was in too much of a hurry and just tapped out a (apparently overly) brief reply.

I will respond in more detail when I am back in town.

Thx,

Joel

[Last Daze]

Only part of it refers to the crucifixion. The Lord's heel was bruised in the crucifixion, but the crushing of the serpent's head is still future. He won't be crushed until Revelation 20:10, which is more than a thousand years in the future.

I'm sorry Roger, but you've completely missed the bus here. I wasn't presenting that prophecy as an example of preterism (ie: prophecy fulfilled). It was presented as an example of prophecy fulfilled in a non-literal way. My point was that it isn't about Jesus stomping on a literal snake. This prophecy, written in quite literal language, was/is fulfilled in a non-literal way.

This on the other hand, is NOT a symbol. We believe that David, the son of Jesse, will literally be resurrected and will reign as king over the 12 tribes of Israel in the Land promised to Jacob's descendents (The Land of Canaan). Jesus Christ will reign over the entire earth from Mount Zion, in Jerusalem.

I'm not quite sure how to respond here Roger. And I'm not at all sure who it is you're referring to when you say "we". I have read ALL of the classic dispensationalist literature (Ryrie, Pentecost, Fruchtenbaum, Walvoord) as well as the progressive dispensationalists (Blaising, Bock, Saucy) along with some of the really old school guys (Blackstone, Chafer, Darby). And I must say that this idea is absolutely foreign to their writings. There is not even so much as a hint of this in any of their books. Maybe you got this from one of the hyper dispys, but this is most definitely not what mainstream dispensationalism teaches. Nor, to be honest, is it Scriptural.

Isa 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 1:31-33 - And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

I'm sorry bro. But no amount of tortured exegesis can escape from the Biblical facts...Jesus will sit on David's throne...not David. Either that or the angel Gabriel got it wrong.

Allow me to quote from another source here: "The covenant God made with King David, that from David's seed a righteous King would sit on the Throne of Israel and reign over Israel forever, was specifically applied to Jesus by Gabriel. [snip] Peter intended to establish Jesus' identity as the Christ (Messiah - King of Israel) prophesied in the Old Testament who WILL physically reign over Israel as King of the Jews."

Nothing could be clearer from the Scriptures.

[Roger Samsel]

I'm sorry Roger, but you've completely missed the bus here. I wasn't presenting that prophecy as an example of preterism (ie: prophecy fulfilled). It was presented as an example of prophecy fulfilled in a non-literal way. My point was that it isn't about Jesus stomping on a literal snake. This prophecy, written in quite literal language, was/is fulfilled in a non-literal way.

LD, this was not a prophecy about snakes that turned out to be fulfilled in some mystical manner. It was a direct address. God was speaking directly to Satan (the Serpent or Dragon who had literally tempted Eve) and telling him personally that he would bruise the heel of the Seed of the Woman and that the Seed of the Woman would crush his head. What non-literal fulfillment are you expecting?

I'm not quite sure how to respond here Roger. And I'm not at all sure who it is you're referring to when you say "we". I have read ALL of the classic dispensationalist literature (Ryrie, Pentecost, Fruchtenbaum, Walvoord) as well as the progressive dispensationalists (Blaising, Bock, Saucy) along with some of the really old school guys (Blackstone, Chafer, Darby). And I must say that this idea is absolutely foreign to their writings. There is not even so much as a hint of this in any of their books. Maybe you got this from one of the hyper dispys, but this is most definitely not what mainstream dispensationalism teaches. Nor, to be honest, is it Scriptural.

Isa 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 1:31-33 - And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

I'm sorry bro. But no amount of tortured exegesis can escape from the Biblical facts...Jesus will sit on David's throne...not David. Either that or the angel Gabriel got it wrong.

Allow me to quote from another source here: "The covenant God made with King David, that from David's seed a righteous King would sit on the Throne of Israel and reign over Israel forever, was specifically applied to Jesus by Gabriel. [snip] Peter intended to establish Jesus' identity as the Christ (Messiah - King of Israel) prophesied in the Old Testament who WILL physically reign over Israel as King of the Jews."

Nothing could be clearer from the Scriptures.

It's been a long time since I worried about being in disagreement with The Great Dispensationalists. There's nothing surprising about their being mistaken about David's role in the Kingdom because, like all non-literal interpreters, they have an unscriptural view of the Kingdom. The Scriptural view is that the Kingdom is the inheritance of the resurrected saints of all ages who have persevered in faith until death. The Dispensational view is that the Kingdom is the inheritance of mortal Jews who persevered in unbelief until the rapture. With such a non-literal and radically false view of the Kingdom, it should be expected that they are going to get a lot of details wrong. I advise you to reduce your esteem for them a couple of notches and trust in what the Scriptures actually say. One of the details they get wrong is the role of David.

The Scriptures make a distinction between David and David's Son. When it comes to the Kingdom, Dispensationalists blur this distinction. Both will be present in the Kingdom and both will have clearly defined roles in the Kingdom. But because Dispensationalists fail to keep separate and distinct what Scripture keeps separate and distinct, they blunder on this important point. Here is the Scriptural view of David, the son of Jesse, and Christ, the son of David.

David, the son of Jesse, will be resurrected at the return of Jesus at the end of the Great Tribulation. He will reign over the 12 Tribes of Israel, in the Land God promised to them. His authority will be inferior to Christ, his dominion will be limited to the Promised Land and his inheritance will be clearly defined within the boundaries of the Land and the City. This is in contrast to Jesus Christ, whose authority will be supreme, and whose dominion and inheritance will be universal. Christ will sit on the Throne of David, but Christ is never called "David." He is consistently called "the Son of David."

Psalm 72 tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ's dominion will be universal; He will save the souls of His subjects; and prayers and worship will directed to Him during the Kingdom. None of this is true of David.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him.
12 For He will deliver the needy when he cries,
The poor also, and him who has no helper.
13 He will spare the poor and needy,
And will save the souls of the needy.
14 He will redeem their life from oppression and violence;
And precious shall be their blood in His sight.
15 And He shall live;
And the gold of Sheba will be given to Him;
Prayer also will be made for Him continually,
And daily He shall be praised.
16 There will be an abundance of grain in the earth,
On the top of the mountains;
Its fruit shall wave like Lebanon;
And those of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure forever;
His name shall continue as long as the sun.
And men shall be blessed in Him;
All nations shall call Him blessed. Psalm 72


The following passages contain teaching regarding David, the son of Jesse.

1. David will be resurrected at the end of the Time of Jacob's Trouble (the Great Tribulation) at the Second Coming of Christ, to reign over Israel.

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘ We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘ For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘ That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘ Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,
‘ Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’


2. David will be king over the descendents of Jacob in the Land where the patriarchs dwelt and he is identified as "the prince" of Ezekiel's prophecy of the Kingdom.

24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Ezekiel 37

This passage is extremely important because "the prince" appears repeatedly in Ezekiel's prophecy and it is impossible to apply these statements to Jesus Christ.

3. David, as the prince, will have the unique privilege of entering the gate that faces toward the east, the same gate through which Messiah Jesus will enter Jerusalem at His second coming.

1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple. 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. Ezekiel 43

1 Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shut. 2 And the LORD said to me, “This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. 3 As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.” Ezekiel 44

4. David's inheritance is clearly defined within the borders of the city, but outside the holy district (the district containing the Temple).

6 “You shall appoint as the property of the city an area five thousand cubits wide and twenty-five thousand long, adjacent to the district of the holy section; it shall belong to the whole house of Israel.
7 “The prince shall have a section on one side and the other of the holy district and the city’s property; and bordering on the holy district and the city’s property, extending westward on the west side and eastward on the east side, the length shall be side by side with one of the tribal portions, from the west border to the east border. 8 The land shall be his possession in Israel; and My princes shall no more oppress My people, but they shall give the rest of the land to the house of Israel, according to their tribes.” Ezekiel 45

David's inheritance is further elaborated in Chapter 48.

15 “The five thousand cubits in width that remain, along the edge of the twenty-five thousand, shall be for general use by the city, for dwellings and common-land; and the city shall be in the center. 16 These shall be its measurements: the north side four thousand five hundred cubits, the south side four thousand five hundred, the east side four thousand five hundred, and the west side four thousand five hundred. 17 The common-land of the city shall be: to the north two hundred and fifty cubits, to the south two hundred and fifty, to the east two hundred and fifty, and to the west two hundred and fifty. 18 The rest of the length, alongside the district of the holy section, shall be ten thousand cubits to the east and ten thousand to the west. It shall be adjacent to the district of the holy section, and its produce shall be food for the workers of the city. 19 The workers of the city, from all the tribes of Israel, shall cultivate it. 20 The entire district shall be twenty-five thousand cubits by twenty-five thousand cubits, foursquare. You shall set apart the holy district with the property of the city.
21 “The rest shall belong to the prince, on one side and on the other of the holy district and of the city’s property, next to the twenty-five thousand cubits of the holy district as far as the eastern border, and westward next to the twenty-five thousand as far as the western border, adjacent to the tribal portions; it shall belong to the prince. It shall be the holy district, and the sanctuary of the temple shall be in the center. 22 Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince, the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince. Ezekiel 48

5. On the Feast of Passover, David will offer a sin offering for himself and for the people. This cannot be true of Jesus Christ who is sinless.

21 “In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. 22 And on that day the prince shall prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering. 23 On the seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bulls and seven rams without blemish, daily for seven days, and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering. 24 And he shall prepare a grain offering of one ephah for each bull and one ephah for each ram, together with a hin of oil for each ephah.
25 “In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the feast, he shall do likewise for seven days, according to the sin offering, the burnt offering, the grain offering, and the oil.” Ezekiel 45

6. David will worship the Lord Jesus in the Temple. Jesus will be personally present in the Temple to receive this worship.

1 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “The gateway of the inner court that faces toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the Sabbath it shall be opened, and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. 2 The prince shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gateway from the outside, and stand by the gatepost. The priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings. He shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening. 3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the entrance to this gateway before the LORD on the Sabbaths and the New Moons. 4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish; 5 and the grain offering shall be one ephah for a ram, and the grain offering for the lambs, as much as he wants to give, as well as a hin of oil with every ephah. 6 On the day of the New Moon it shall be a young bull without blemish, six lambs, and a ram; they shall be without blemish. 7 He shall prepare a grain offering of an ephah for a bull, an ephah for a ram, as much as he wants to give for the lambs, and a hin of oil with every ephah. 8 When the prince enters, he shall go in by way of the vestibule of the gateway, and go out the same way.
Ezekiel 46

7. David will have the freedom to share his inheritance with his sons. He will not have the freedom to disinherit an of the people's inheritance. This passage cannot be describing Jesus Christ because Jesus has no physical descendants.

16 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “If the prince gives a gift of some of his inheritance to any of his sons, it shall belong to his sons; it is their possession by inheritance. 17 But if he gives a gift of some of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his until the year of liberty, after which it shall return to the prince. But his inheritance shall belong to his sons; it shall become theirs. 18 Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people’s inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of My people may be scattered from his property.”’” Ezekiel 46


You may call this "tortured exegesis," but it is what the Scriptures literally say. I would to hear you explain how all these passages referring David, Israel's prince, really refer to Christ.

Roger

[Joel]

Hi,

I see Roger beat me to the punch here.

His point about John the Baptist is spot on - Jesus own words show that this is not an example of a literal prophecy that is declared by the Bible to be figuratively fulfilled. He is also spot on about David, and that Goid's words to the Serpent are not per se a prophecy (also there is no place in Scripture where they are declared to be fulfilled).

Remember the challenge is to produce a prophecy in Scriptural that is:

a) Literal

AND

B ) Declared in Scripture to be fulfilled in an non literal manner

Without examples there is no good reason to accept the allegorizing of prophesy in Scripture.

I also cannot understand why you are trying to change what Preterism is. It is a belief system very specifically about propechies pertaining to the second coming. It states (in its full or consistent form) that they are all fulfilled and that this is the eternal state. In its lesser forms it holds that parts of the prophecies pertaining to the second coming have already been fulfilled. It is NEVER understood as simply holding that Messianic prophecies or other such prophecies are fulfilled. And it is heresy regardless of whether it is full or partial because the harmaneutic it uses (and it shares with Gnosticism) leads (if followed consistently) to denial of the resurrection of the body. It also leads to denial that Jesus Christ is still come in the flesh, which according to the Bible is the Spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3).

[RHawes]

5. On the Feast of Passover, David will offer a sin offering for himself and for the people. This cannot be true of Jesus Christ who is sinless.

21 “In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. 22 And on that day the prince shall prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering. 23 On the seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bulls and seven rams without blemish, daily for seven days, and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering. 24 And he shall prepare a grain offering of one ephah for each bull and one ephah for each ram, together with a hin of oil for each ephah.
25 “In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the feast, he shall do likewise for seven days, according to the sin offering, the burnt offering, the grain offering, and the oil.” Ezekiel 45

Roger,

This is a fascinating passage to me in that is states that David will offer a sin offering for himself in the Millennial Kingdom, after he has been resurrected! My understanding of scripture is that we will be sinless in our resurrected state, that we will have "overcome" by that time.

Can it be that we, too, will need to offer sacrifices for sins in that day?

Robert

[Roger Samsel]

Roger,

This is a fascinating passage to me in that is states that David will offer a sin offering for himself in the Millennial Kingdom, after he has been resurrected! My understanding of scripture is that we will be sinless in our resurrected state, that we will have "overcome" by that time.

Can it be that we, too, will need to offer sacrifices for sins in that day?

Robert

Robert,

Yes, David will be in a resurrected state and therefore without sin. There's no question about that.

That sacrifices will be offered in the Kingdom is abundantly clear; the issue is their nature and meaning. I think Psalm 27 is helpful in this regard if we recognize this Psalm to be prophetic.

1 The LORD is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the strength of my life;
Of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When the wicked came against me
To eat up my flesh,
My enemies and foes,
They stumbled and fell.
3 Though an army may encamp against me,
My heart shall not fear;
Though war may rise against me,
In this I will be confident.
4 One thing I have desired of the LORD,
That will I seek:
That I may dwell in the house of the LORD
All the days of my life,
To behold the beauty of the LORD,
And to inquire in His temple.
5 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.
6 And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me;
Therefore I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle;
I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the LORD.

How is this prophetic? Though David writes in the first person, what he writes will be true of Israel in the Great Tribulation. Verses 1-3 perfectly describe the Battle of Armaggedon when all the armies of the nations gather together against Judah and Jerusalem. In that day, the armies will literally "stumble and fall." Immediately after that the Kingdom will be established and with it the worship in the Millennial Temple. This is described in Verses 4-6. Notice in Verse 6 that David says, "I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle." Under the Mosaic Covenant, David, because he was from the Tribe of Judah, was forbidden to offer sacrifices. Only priests of the House of Aaron could do that. But if this is prophetic, and literal, then it agrees with Ezekiel's prophecy. David will himself offer sacrifices in the Tabernacle / Temple of God.

The second thing I notice about this is that these are called "sacrifices of joy." Although we will not commit sin in our resurrected state, we will never forget that we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The nature of these sacrifices then will not be to take away sin; they will be commemorative of the sacrifice of Christ and they will be offered in joy and praise.

YBIC

[RHawes]

Immediately after that the Kingdom will be established and with it the worship in the Millennial Temple. This is described in Verses 4-6. Notice in Verse 6 that David says, "I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle." Under the Mosaic Covenant, David, because he was from the Tribe of Judah, was forbidden to offer sacrifices. Only priests of the House of Aaron could do that. But if this is prophetic, and literal, then it agrees with Ezekiel's prophecy. David will himself offer sacrifices in the Tabernacle / Temple of God.

The second thing I notice about this is that these are called "sacrifices of joy." Although we will not commit sin in our resurrected state, we will never forget that we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The nature of these sacrifices then will not be to take away sin; they will be commemorative of the sacrifice of Christ and they will be offered in joy and praise.

YBIC

Thanks, Roger. The idea of sacrifices made in remembrance and thanksgiving makes perfect sense. I'm sure they will also serve as examples to others who are born and grow up in that age, as they, too, will need to be saved.