[Roger Samsel]

Is it compatible with Christianity? Should Christians go to psychotherapists? What about psychiatric drugs? Liscensed professional counselors on church staffs? Depression? ADHD? Bipolar? etc etc etc...

[Tanya]

Hi Roger,

Check this out, I think you'll find it of interest http://www.psychoher...g/ministry.html

YSIC

Tanya

[Roger Samsel]

Hi Tanya,

Thanks for responding. That's one of my favorite websites. The reason I asked the question is I brought up this topic a couple of Wednesday nights ago in the Bible study I teach at my church. I take the position that psychology (including "Christian" psychology) is not a science. It is a religion that is incompatible with true Christianity. And following the theories of psychology is "walking in the counsel of the ungodly." I also told them that all psychiatric drugs actually CAUSE the very problems they are prescribed to remedy and they also cause permanent brain damage

I expected some lively discussion. But I did NOT expect people to be beside themselves with anger. That's what I got. I really underestimated the reaction.

YBIC

[Tanya]

I can imagine. I wonder how many of the people who reacted are on some kind of medication or in counseling, or have a loved one who is, and who are big fans of the psycho-gurus in the church. A lot of people rely on psychology more than God when they start having problems. It's almost as if God is good enough when things are going reasonably well, but when the real trouble starts, you need to resort to man. This truly reveals a lack of trust in God.

Jer 17:5
Thus says the LORD:

"Cursed is the man who trusts in man
And makes flesh his strength,
Whose heart departs from the LORD.
NKJV


YSIC,

Tanya

[Brian]

I hate to say it, but I'm just going to have to agree with Tom Cruise on this one.

Before I turned to Christ at age 22, I had been diagnosed with various "mental illnesses." To "cure" my depression, anxiety, OCD, I was given a handful of psychiatric medications, none of which did a bit of good. Looking back, I realize that God was using those difficult times in my life to draw me to Himself.

In other words, my depression, anxiety were not medical nor physical problems (no one ever tested for any chemical imbalances), but soul problems. Because my hope in life was misplaced and not centered on Christ, God allowed me to experience a time of darkness and despair. If I hadn't been humbled the way I was, I probably wouldn't have ever sought for that which is of God.

Now, as a Christian, I am by no means immune from some of the things that plagued me before. But now I have the power I never had before (Romans 6). Today, it is an immediate red flag when I fall into despair or anxiety (I wouldn't think of popping medication or going to so-called Christian psychologists- they wouldn't agree with each other anyway because that's the nature of a pseudo-science). Rather, such circumstances accentuate my need to repent of my attitude, seek the Lord and place my hope squarely on His Word. As John MacArthur may put it, either the Bible is sufficient or not, right? (years ago MacArthur was maligned for not sending a young man to "professional help" when it was made known that the man took his own life after receiving counseling by the elders at Grace Church)

I have a good Christian friend who has bought into the legitimacy and effectiveness of Psychotherapy for the Christian. I don't know why. Even non believers sense that it is bogus (note "The Myth of Mental Illness" by Thomas Szasz, a Jew). And many believer's are fighting strenuously against it (the Bobgan's, Dave Hunt, T.A MacMahon)

Sincerely,
Brian

[Tanya]

This came in my email today:

The overwhelming majority of Christians have probably never heard of C. G.
Jung, but his influence in the church is vast and affects sermons, books,
and activities, such as the prolific use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator
(MBTI) by seminaries and missionary organizations. A current, popular
example of Jung's legacy can be seen in Robert Hicks's book The Masculine
Journey, which was given to each of the 50,000 men whoattended the 1993
Promise Keepers conference. Christians need to learn enough about Jung and
his teachings to be warned and wary.

Jung's legacy to "Christian psychology" is both direct and indirect. Some
professing Christians, who have been influenced by Jung's teachings,
integrate aspects of Jungian theory into their own practice of
psychotherapy. They may incorporate his notions regarding personality types,
the personal unconscious, dream analysis, and various archetypes in their
own attempt to understand and counsel their clients. Other Christians have
been influenced more indirectly as they have engaged in inner healing,
followed 12-step programs, or taken the MBTI, which is based on Jung's
personality types and incorporates his theories of introversion and
extroversion.

Because Jung turned psychoanalysis into a type of religion, he is also
considered to be a transpersonal psychologist as well as a psychoanalytical
theorist. He delved deeply into the occult, practiced necromancy, and had
daily contact with disembodied spirits, which he called archetypes. Much of
what he wrote was inspired by such entities. Jung had his own familiar
spirit whom he called Philemon. At first he thought Philemon was part of his
own psyche, but later on he found that Philemon was more than an expression
of his own inner self. Jung says:

"Philemon and other figures of my fantasies brought home to me the crucial
insight that there are things in the psyche which I do not produce, but
which produce themselves and have their own life. Philemon represented a
force which was not myself. In my fantasies I held conversations with him,
and he said things which I had not consciously thought. For I observed
clearly that it was he who spoke, not I. . . . Psychologically, Philemon
represented superior insight. He was a mysterious figure to me. At times he
seemed to me quite real, as if he were a living personality. I went walking
up and down the garden with him, and to me he was what the Indians call a
guru."

http://www.pamweb.org/jungleg.html

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[Robert Gerard]

I took a semester of psycology in High School. If what I learned in that time is accurate, Carl Jung is the father of modern psycology. As the article above mentions, he was an occultist.

[jbeard777]

I took a semester of psycology in High School. If what I learned in that time is accurate, Carl Jung is the father of modern psycology. As the article above mentions, he was an occultist.

I thought it was Freud... at least that is who it was in college for me not much difference!

[jbeard777]

This came in my email today:

Tanya,

The Bobgans have excellent reference material and documentation, I have enjoyed their newsletter for years. As for the PK Masculine Journey, it is an awful book and brought into a previous church of mine like some sort of group therapy thing. (So I have first hand experience with this issue sad to say) I retained the copy of the book as evidence as needed.

Here is some material I have online showing Jung's legacy being carried into the church: (The quotes are direct I hope those here do not find it offensive as being from me)[i]

On October 3, 1993 in the men's class we started into the workbook section about "Exploring the issues with other men" The first question deals with men growing up with confused models of sexuality, the second about fighting the argument of "God made me this way," the third and fourth questions is where we get into trouble, (pages 32-34 of the Masculine Journey Workbook)

"3. Our culture has presented many initiation rites, or passages to manhood, that are associated with the phallus [penis]. Which ones have you experienced? Do you have a story to share with other men about one such event?

- "When I was potty trained and stopped wetting my bed - Pubic hair and growth - An unfortunate experience with pornography - My first dating experience - My first really embarrassing moment with a girl - The wedding night - Conceiving my first child - other:"

"4. If only the church had alternative initiation rites to the ones offered above. What creative alternative celebrations can you think of?"

Why do Christians need to talk about these things? Why so much emphasis on the male genitalia? Freudian & Jungian psychology is based upon genitalia and the discussion these matters, the Bible condemns such discussions. If we are dead to sin should these questions even be allowed in the Church? For example: What experience with porn and my private parts could be discussed without the presence of sin? What experience about my first date and my private parts be discussed without sin? (not much) What experience about my private parts and my wedding night would be permissible to discuss with other men, does not my body now belong to my wife, how dare I discuss such intimacy with anyone else but her? Conceiving my first child, what's to discuss that would not violate my vows, or my conscience before God?

Dr. Hicks doesn't stop here, but wants men to have "creative alternative initiation rites" to those listed above. How can this be? Again this is not possible without sin.

What does Dr. Hicks base his teaching on? The Bible, as seen through the eyes of Basic Secular Psychology. On page 176-177 Dr. Hicks discusses the matter of initiation, I was determined to understand what he was trying to say in the workbook insert provided Sunday and here is another quote, "I'm sure many would balk at my thought of celebrating the experience of sin. I'm not sure how we could do it. But I do know we need to do it. " To defend (rationalize) his point he talks about how we condemn our teens when "--- they have their first experience with the police, or their first drunk, or their first experience with sex or drugs---" He says we could look upon any of these "--- as a teachable moment and a rite of passage ---" Then he says the "true elders could come forward and confess their own adolescent sins and congratulate the next generation for being human." Then Hicks closes the paragraph saying "that is when we can move on to forgiveness and restoration!" I can not believe any Christian could make such statements unless they are deceived, or in a terrible backslidden state! Brothers, I admonish you to put this material in it's proper place. (the trash can!)
--- Along with anything else being done in the Church in the name of psychology.

Romans 8:5-6 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

[jbeard777]

I hate to say it, but I'm just going to have to agree with Tom Cruise on this one.

Before I turned to Christ at age 22, I had been diagnosed with various "mental illnesses." To "cure" my depression, anxiety, OCD, I was given a handful of psychiatric medications, none of which did a bit of good. Looking back, I realize that God was using those difficult times in my life to draw me to Himself.

In other words, my depression, anxiety were not medical nor physical problems (no one ever tested for any chemical imbalances), but soul problems. Because my hope in life was misplaced and not centered on Christ, God allowed me to experience a time of darkness and despair. If I hadn't been humbled the way I was, I probably wouldn't have ever sought for that which is of God.

Now, as a Christian, I am by no means immune from some of the things that plagued me before. But now I have the power I never had before (Romans 6). Today, it is an immediate red flag when I fall into despair or anxiety (I wouldn't think of popping medication or going to so-called Christian psychologists- they wouldn't agree with each other anyway because that's the nature of a pseudo-science). Rather, such circumstances accentuate my need to repent of my attitude, seek the Lord and place my hope squarely on His Word. As John MacArthur may put it, either the Bible is sufficient or not, right? (years ago MacArthur was maligned for not sending a young man to "professional help" when it was made known that the man took his own life after receiving counseling by the elders at Grace Church)

I have a good Christian friend who has bought into the legitimacy and effectiveness of Psychotherapy for the Christian. I don't know why. Even non believers sense that it is bogus (note "The Myth of Mental Illness" by Thomas Szasz, a Jew). And many believer's are fighting strenuously against it (the Bobgan's, Dave Hunt, T.A MacMahon)

Sincerely,
Brian

Brian,

Amen! As to T.A MacMahon I have an excellent article from him I have saved from the 1980s with some very powerful statistics... showing the ineffectiveness of psychology so why the church would want to lean on it is a sad testament to the growing apostasy,

John

[Roger Samsel]

Brian, Tanya, John, Robert,

Thanks for the excellent discussion. I had a somewhat similar experience to Brian's as a teenager, but the differences are probably due to the fact that I'm about 15 years older. I had always been an easy going, friendly, quiet kid. I was also very involved in the youth groups at two churches, and was thought of as extremely spiritually mature for my age. I had plans to go to Bible college when I graduated. I never got into trouble, made good grades and was compliant at home.

When I was 15, I suddenly became very sad and extremely withdrawn. Most days I would be my normal self, but then suddenly I would refuse to go places with my friends and sit by myself in my room, or go for long walks alone. I cried a lot. I got angry very easily. I couldn't sleep. Then I would be my "normal" self for a while again, and then it would start all over. Sometimes I would go for a few days at a time unable to speak without bursting into tears. I had headaches. I experienced an emotional roller-coaster.

I'm pretty sure that if I had been born 30 years later, I would have been diagnosed as mentally ill and put on drugs. But that stuff didn't happen then. In my case, what was happening is that when I was 15, I went to a Keith Green concert. Keith always gave free concerts and spent half the time singing and half preaching. That night, I came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I was not saved. I spent the next two years resisting the drawing of the Holy Spirit. It was that spiritual battle that was the root cause of my emotional distress. Eventually, God won this battle and I was saved.

What would have happened to me if the psychologists and psychiatrists had gotten hold of me and turned me into an emotional zombie with drugs as they are doing today with ~15% of children?

I am amazed at how the church has changed in my lifetime. We used to understand that psychology was a competing, contrary philosophy fundamentally opposed to Christianity. The two were irreconcilable enemies. Fast forward thirty years and now we think they are compatible and should be partners in our mental / emotional / spiritual well-being. How did this happen?

And what is even more amazing than the speed at which this change has happened is the depth to which psychology has penetrated our beliefs, attitudes and values. I have "made waves" in a variety of topics (eschatology, baptism, OSAS, Calvinism, preterism etc), but nothing has generated the kind of negative reaction that I have received from talking about psychology. I am beginning to think that in the modern church, psychology is our religion more so than Christianity. Why do I say that? Because I hear people attacking the fundamental doctrines of Christianity all the time, and the church yawns. But if someone timidly questions the fundamental doctrines of psychology, then all hell breaks loose.

Sincerely,

Roger

[Admin]

Roger,

As someone who has had first hand experience, I can testify to the ineffectiveness of psychology and to the effectiveness of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

I do agree that our churches have become infected with "psychobabble".

[Last Daze]

I expected some lively discussion. But I did NOT expect people to be beside themselves with anger. That's what I got. I really underestimated the reaction.

Man, can I relate. I can recall back in the late '80s before I embarked on what I refer to as The Second Graduate School Tour. The pastor of the church I was attending at the time made the "mistake" of asking me to sub for him, teaching his Wednesday night Bible Study while he was away. Ironically, the Bible Study just "happened" to be in Colossians and my text for that night was: "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power." Needless to say, I included psychology as chief among the "vain philosophies" of our day. Oh what a ruckus I created. LOL!

[Roger Samsel]

Hi Last Daze,

If psychology does not fit in that text in Colossians, I don't know what does. It truly is spoiling God's people through philosophy and empty deceit, completely robbing them of the promises of God and a walk of faith.

I have not "recovered" from that night when I talked about psychology. I am still teaching the class, but there is a distinct group within the class that have completely turned me off spiritually and are always listening but only to find something upon which to pounce. The only reason I am continuing is because there is another small group asking me to stay. It's not an easy decision.

Roger

[Prophetess]

Has anyone ever considered that some of these mental illness are indeed demonic?

[Roger Samsel]

This is an old thread, but I thought of it today because of this news article...

http://www.alertnet....k/N03411375.htm

Antidepressant use doubles in US, study finds 03 Aug 2009 20:00:22 GMT
Source: Reuters
* Use doubles from 13 million to 27 million Americans

* Increase in use not seen among blacks

* More Americans may accept diagnosis of depression

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON, Aug 3 (Reuters) - Use of antidepressant drugs in the United States doubled between 1996 and 2005, probably because of a mix of factors, researchers reported on Monday.

About 6 percent of people were prescribed an antidepressant in 1996 -- 13 million people. This rose to more than 10 percent or 27 million people by 2005, the researchers found.

"Significant increases in antidepressant use were evident across all sociodemographic groups examined, except African Americans," Dr. Mark Olfson of Columbia University in New York and Steven Marcus of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia wrote in the Archives of General Psychiatry.

"Not only are more U.S. residents being treated with antidepressants, but also those who are being treated are receiving more antidepressant prescriptions," they added.

More than 164 million prescriptions were written in 2008 for antidepressants, totaling $9.6 billion in U.S. sales, according to IMS Health.

Drugs that affect the brain chemical serotonin like GlaxoSmithKline's <GSK.L> Paxil, known generically as paroxetine, and Eli Lilly and Co's <LLY.N> Prozac, known generically as fluoxetine, are the most commonly prescribed class of antidepressant. But the study found the effect in all classes of the drugs.

Olfson and Marcus looked at the Medical Expenditure Panel Surveys done by the U.S. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, involving more than 50,000 people in 1996 and 2005.

"During this period, individuals treated with antidepressants became more likely to also receive treatment with antipsychotic medications and less likely to undergo psychotherapy," they wrote.

SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE

The survey did not look at why, but the researchers made some educated guesses. It may be more socially acceptable to be diagnosed with and treated for depression, they said. The availability of new drugs may also have been a factor.

"Although there was little change in total promotional spending for antidepressants between 1999 ($0.98 billion) and 2005 ($1.02 billion), there was a marked increase in the percentage of this spending that was devoted to direct-to consumer advertising, from 3.3 percent ($32 million) to 12 percent ($122.00 million)," they added.

Dr. Eric Caine of the University of Rochester in New York said he was concerned by the findings. "Antidepressants are only moderately effective on population level," he said in a telephone interview.

Caine, who was not involved in the research, noted that several studies show therapy is as effective as, if not more effective than, drug use alone.

"There are no data to say that the population is healthier. Indeed, the suicide rate in the middle years of life has been climbing," he said.

Olfson and Marcus said out-of-pocket costs for psychotherapy and lower insurance coverage for such visits may have driven patients away from seeing therapists in favor of an easy-to-prescribe pill.

The rise in antidepressant prescriptions also is seen despite a series of public health warnings on use of antidepressant drugs beginning in 2003 after clinical trials showed they increased the risk of suicidal thoughts and behaviors in children and teens.

In February 2005, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration added its strongest warning, a so-called black box, on the use of all antidepressants in children and teens.

[RHawes]

I've read through this thread with interest, and while I agree that doctors are dispensing medication willy-nilly as people seek to escape rather than deal with their problems, and that God does try to get our attention in many ways, I believe that designating all psychology as bunk is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Think about some examples:

It is a proven fact that chemical and/or hormonal imbalances can affect behavior. The body can and does affect the mind.

I know a person who has an almost debilitating fear of heights. Is that sin? Is that a result of wandering from the Lord?

Are people who feel compelled to obsessive-compulsive behavior (such as frequent hand-washing, or lining things up just-so) really suffering from a spiritual malady?

Is a fear of public speaking (such as Moses apparently had) really just a spiritual condition? True, Moses used every excuse he could think of to escape from what God wanted him to do, but that's a different issue than the fear itself.

Is post-partum depression a sign of spiritual weakness or sin? I've known some godly ladies who have suffered from this, a few quite severely.

I know a guy who made a nervous wreck of himself in the belief that he had to stop and pray at the oddest times, otherwise he felt that God would punish him. He got to the point where he could barely function. Was he out of fellowship with the Lord?

I went through a period of time when, while driving down the road, if the speedometer needle wasn't exactly on the posted speed limit, I thought I was sinning. Was that the Holy Spirit?

In a recent message, Tim Warner mentioned dealing with a guy who was obsessed with trying to go back and somehow atone for every sin he had ever committed in his life. Was that the Spirit of the Lord dragging him over the coals?

Is there really no such thing as post-traumatic stress disorder, when a person emerges shaken from a near-death experience or some other life-changing event?

I list these things to make the point that there seem to be many different mental ailments from which people suffer, for one reason or another. Yes, in some instances it may be the Spirit of God trying to get hold of someone. In other instances, it may be demonic oppression (John Bunyan and C.H. Spurgeon could testify on that score). But in other instances, there may be non-spiritual forces at work in a person's life. For that reason, while I am wary of psychology in secular circles in particular, I do not completely dismiss its usefulness in the Christian realm.

A friend of mine put it rather well: if you had a physical ailment of some type, would you dismiss the idea of consulting a doctor in favor of simply praying about it, as the Christian Scientists would advise? Yes, He is the Great Physician, and we can and should seek Him in matters of healing, but I don't think it reasonable to completely dismiss human aid. Even Paul counseled Timothy regarding a material remedy for a physical ailment, rather than telling him to just pray about it. By the same token, should we automatically consider every sign of mental distress a spiritual issue, and totally dismiss any other possibility?

I don't find it reasonable. Nor do I find it biblical. The Bible does warn against "the wisdom of this world," but it never condemns the pursuit of knowledge, or reasonable argumentation in general (which necessarily encompasses the field of Christian apologetics), or all human methods for dealing with problems. Spiritual counsel should be first and foremost, but I don't think that precludes the use of other methods. Not all human methodology constitutes "worldly wisdom" any more than Paul's advice to "take a little wine for your stomach's sake" constituted a denial of God's power to heal.

Anyway, I'm not looking for a fight here, and may not comment further on the matter. I just wanted to throw out some food for thought.