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Topic 1 - The Harmony of Scripture

#1 User is offline   Roger Samsel Icon

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 07:31 AM

The Harmony of Scripture Regarding the Eschatological Reign of Christ


Introduction

What is the hope of the saints? In a nutshell it is this: The material world in which we live was created perfect but fell under a curse because of man’s sin. Our earnest expectation is that according to God’s promise, it will one day be restored to the state in which God originally designed it. Man was created to dwell on this earth and the destiny and hope of believers is Christ's coming eschatological Kingdom in which the physical creation will be redeemed from the bondage of corruption. The Bible calls this “a new heaven and new earth.” Moreover, our vile bodies will be resurrected and glorified and the Messiah will reign over this world in a Kingdom that will never pass away. When Christ returns, we will be judged and given our reward and inheritance in His kingdom.

We are delighted to read in their position statement that our Amillennial brothers agree with us that the destiny of the saints is not an immaterial heaven, but a physical, material earth that will be restored to its former state at the Second Coming of Christ. In fact, there is much that we agree with in the Amillennial position statement and certain statements are well worth repeating, including this one.

QUOTE
The foremost consideration when studying Scripture must be to establish the contextual meaning of the text, whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and what and when it relates to.  We must also let other Scripture corroborate our understanding of it and shed further light on the meaning of the text in question.  We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages.  If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture.


We could not agree more wholeheartedly. And in view of this statement, we challenge our Amillennial brothers to recognize that the Hope upon which we have agreed was not introduced in the last three chapters of the Bible nor even in the New Testament. It is the Hope of all the saints of all the ages. Indeed, according to the apostle Peter in Acts 3:21, this hope “was spoken by the mouth of ALL His holy prophets since the world began.”

The Chiliast position does not rest on any single passage of Scripture or even on a dozen. It is derived from the progressive revelation and harmony of literally hundreds of passages of Scripture, all considered within their proper contexts, and allowing the straightforward meaning of numerous clear passages to explain those that are more difficult. We must consider everything that “was spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” Only then can we affirm with the apostle Paul, “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.” (Acts 24:14)

In our opinion, the weakness of the Amillennial position is that it considers only a small fraction of the Scriptural data. And because it fails to establish the proper contextual understanding of the passages it does use, it comes to erroneous conclusions.

In this paper, we will demonstrate this harmony of Scriptures regarding that period of time following the Day of the Lord (the Second Coming of Christ). We will show that all of the details prophesied in these passages are accounted for in the Chiliast position. We challenge our brothers to account for all of these details within their system. It is one thing to say that these passages are fulfilled “in another way.” It is quite another to explain exactly what this other way is.



The Hope is found in the oldest Scriptures.

The oldest book in the Bible, the Book of Job, is the first to record this hope.

23 "Oh, that my words were written!
Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!
24 That they were engraved on a rock
With an iron pen and lead, forever!
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me! Job 19 (NKJV)


Job expresses a two-fold hope. One, he foresees the Redeemer “standing at last on the earth” (v 25). Secondly, he expects his body to be resurrected (after his “skin is destroyed”) and to see this great event with his own physical eyes (v 26). Because this is the earliest expression of the hope of the saints recorded in Scripture, it will be instructive to consider how this expression is properly understood in the light of progressive revelation. There is both a proper approach and an improper approach.

In a proper approach, we can observe that there are many details we do not find here that will be added to the expression of this hope later in the progress of revelation. For example, we will later learn that there are two advents of the Redeemer and the resurrection of which Job speaks will occur at the latter. We cannot know this only by reading Job, but it is made clear by later revelation. This advent will follow a great battle. This advent of the Redeemer will include not only resurrection of dead saints such as Job, but also the instantaneous change of living saints into glorified bodies. This advent will be accompanied by judgments. The exact location where the Redeemer will stand will be revealed. And there are numerous other details we could list.

To illustrate an improper approach, we will borrow from the interpretation Preterism attaches to this passage. Within the Preterist system, the Redeemer does not actually “stand” on the earth because the Redeemer does not have feet and does not literally come to the earth, except in a “spiritual” sense. Within such a paradigm, Job is not literally resurrected and so the references to his skin, flesh and eyes symbolically mean his spirit. To a Preterist, the “resurrection” of which he speaks is a “spiritual resurrection.” Within that system, few if any of the details of Job’s statement are to be taken at face value. We consider this to be an improper approach, and in fact, this approach has led Preterists completely outside the pale of orthodoxy.

With this, we will state what we consider to be a fundamental principle of exegesis. Later prophecies build on a foundation of earlier prophecies and the proper way to examine any Bible doctrine is to start at the beginning and trace this progress of revelation forward. In the progress of Revelation, we will see the Hope of the saints first expressed by Job expanded to include a myriad of details. But we will NEVER see the essence of this hope contradicted or superceded.


This hope is the substance of the Abrahamic Covenant.

6I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Gen 17


There was no such thing as Jews and Gentiles at the time of Job, and so it would have been anachronistic for Job to say anything regarding these in the expression of his hope. But beginning with the Abrahamic covenant, God began to delineate specific promises to specific people regarding their Hope. God promised to the descendants of Abraham the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession (v 8). This is much more than what was revealed to Job, but many more details are yet to be included in this hope and will be part of later revelation.


This hope is carried into the Psalms and is not limited to the borders of Canaan.

7 "I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
"You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2



9For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace...

17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
But the LORD upholds the righteous.
18 The LORD knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the LORD,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off…

27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.
28 For the LORD loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever...

34 Wait on the LORD,
And keep His way,
And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a native green tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
For the future of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them,
Because they trust in Him. Psalm 37



This hope is continued and expanded in the Davidic Covenant

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” 2 Samuel 7

28 My mercy I will keep for him forever,
And My covenant shall stand firm with him.
29 His seed also I will make to endure forever,
And his throne as the days of heaven.

30 “If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they break My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David:
36 His seed shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me;
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah Psalm 89



In 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 and again echoed in Psalm 89, God made a promise to David that included at least three elements. 1) David would have a son who would build the temple (2 Sam 7:13 - literally fulfilled by Solomon). 2) David’s descendants will not lose the throne despite their sin, although this sin would be severely chastised (Psalm 89). 3) David’s throne, house, and kingdom will be established forever (2 Sam 7:29).


This hope remains unchanged in the Prophets.

The Prophetic Books contain an incredible number of details regarding the hope of “the restoration of all things” to which Peter made allusion in Acts 3. And so we have the choice of literally hundreds of verses we could quote. In the interest of space, we will not quote hundreds of verses. Instead, we will offer five passages as being representative of the Hebrew Prophetic Scriptures. These are Isaiah 2, 11, Ezekiel 47, Haggai 2 and Zechariah 14.

We choose these for several reasons. Isaiah was a pre-exilic prophet, that is, he prophesied before the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel prophesied during the exile. And Haggai and Zechariah prophesied after the exile. We continue to see later prophecies (Haggai, Zechariah) building on earlier ones (Isaiah). And yet, there is perfect harmony between the eschatological details presented by these prophets. Although we still observe details being continually added as we trace this doctrine, we NEVER see any being contradicted. In addition, these prophecies mention very specific details regarding known geographic features and named locations. They mention specific changes in the physical earth and in the natural order. They speak of details regarding the worship of the saints following the Second Coming and of details regarding the reign of the Messiah on earth following His Second Coming. Are these also symbolic? If so, how?




Isaiah 2

1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.


There are several specific details we would like to point out from this passage. First of all, this prophecy is specifically “concerning Judah and Jerusalem” (v1) The term “Judah” can refer to the son of Jacob called by that name, to a specific people (the tribe descended from him and known by that name) or to a specific place (the land assigned to this tribe which later, along with Benjamin, comprised the southern kingdom). The term “Jerusalem” however can only refer to the city where the Lord chose to place His name. Thus, when the two terms are used together this way, it is highly likely that the place is in view. This also follows from the fact that the vision in fact concerns not only the tribe of Judah but in fact, all nations and people who will come to the geographical place known as Judah and Jerusalem.

The “mountain of the Lord’s house” (v 2) is Mount Moriah within Jerusalem. This is the place where the Lord’s house was built by Solomon. When Christ returns, this mountain will stand at the head of the mountains because it will be the center of Christ’s Messianic rule. This is stated explicitly in the last phrase of verse 2 and verse 3. Zion is the mountain in Jerusalem where King David built his palace and it came to be used as a synonym for the city. “All nations” (v 2) and “many people” (v 3) will come to Jerusalem and to the house of God (the temple) during the Messiah’s reign. Other passages will speak in greater detail about the reason these nations will come to Jerusalem. We will refer to these shortly. In verse 4 we are told that during the reign of the Messiah over this world, there will be no war. The fact that there is currently warfare being waged and blood being shed on six of earth’s seven continents certainly proves that these conditions are not now prevailing. Every single detail of this prophecy is corroborated in other passages.


Isaiah 11

1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
10 “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dryshod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


Verses 1-4 speak of the Second Coming of Christ. This is made clear by the last half of verse 4 (cf Rev 12:5 and 19:15). Verse 5 follows verse 4 chronologically. This is necessary from the Hebrew construction. In technical terms, the first verb in verse 5 (“shall be”) is a vav-consecutive perfect which means it follows the verb “slay” in time. Thus, verses 5-16 speak of the results of His Coming. Among other details of this passage, we are told of changes that will occur in the natural order. Verses 6-9 tell us that the venom and fierceness now part of the animal kingdom will be no more. In “the restoration of all things” there will apparently be great changes in the instinctive natures and in the organic physiology of the beasts of the earth. They will no longer hurt or destroy. Indeed, it is barely possible to imagine to what extent the animal and plant kingdoms have been affected by the curse. But both will be restored to their pristine state at the Second Coming of Christ.

Verse 10 speaks of Gentiles in this Kingdom just as verses 2-4 of Isaiah 2 spoke of Gentiles in the kingdom. These Gentiles are said to be under His banner, seeking Him, and resting in Him. Thus, according to these prophecies, the blessings of Christ’s kingdom are not limited to Israel but encompass Gentiles as well. In every nation are included those who can be described as “the meek of the earth.” All of these will be rewarded in the Kingdom of the Messiah. If Israel symbolizes all of the elect in these prophecies, then what do the Gentiles symbolize?

Verses 11-16 speak of the restoration and regathering of Israel. Verse 11 mentions eight specific, named locations from which the children of Israel will be regathered. These can be located on a map. If this is meant symbolically, then what is the symbolic meaning of these places? Verse 13 speaks of the reunification of Israel and Judah. Other passages also speak of this (cf Ezekiel 37). Verse 14 mentions four, specific named peoples who will be subdued under Israel during the Kingdom. These are nations who have historically oppressed the Jews. If this is symbolic, then what is the symbolic interpretation of these four nations? Verse 15 says that the tongue of the Egyptian Sea (Red Sea) will be dried up making a highway for the Children of Israel to travel across. This is also stated in Isaiah 51:10-11 where it is said that it will be just like when God allowed His people to cross the Red Sea the first time when He brought them out of Egypt.

If all of this is symbolic, then what are the meanings for all of these symbols? We have so far only looked at two passages in the Prophetic Books and already the number of details is rapidly increasing. Jesus said that “not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.” So if these passages do not mean what they say, then please tell us what they do mean.


Ezekiel 47

13 Thus says the Lord GOD: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.
15 “This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
18 “On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
19 “The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
20 “The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
21 “Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance,” says the Lord GOD.


This division of the Land of Canaan in the Kingdom of the Messiah is continued in Chapter 48. The reason for bringing it up is to pose this question. Is this literal? If not, then what is the symbolic meaning of the detailed description of, and references to, known geographic locations? If this is to be taken allegorically, then what is the correct allegorical interpretation? What is the “spiritual” meaning of Hethlon (v 15), Zedad (v 15), Hamath (v 16), Berothah (v 16), Sibraim (v 16) and Hazar Enan (v 17) etc…?

Also note that verse 21 says that the land will be “divided by lot as an inheritance.” This is also spoken of personally to the prophet Daniel in Daniel 12 with reference to the resurrection.

“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” Dan 12:13 (NKJV)

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (KJV)


Question: Will Daniel be resurrected to inherit a portion of the Land of Canaan at the Second Coming of Christ?


Haggai 2

1 In the seventh month, on the twenty-first of the month, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet, saying: 2 “Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, saying: 3 ‘Who is left among you who saw this temple in its former glory? And how do you see it now? In comparison with it, is this not in your eyes as nothing? 4 Yet now be strong, Zerubbabel,’ says the LORD; ‘and be strong, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land,’ says the LORD, ‘and work; for I am with you,’ says the LORD of hosts. 5 ‘According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you; do not fear!’
6 “For thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. 8 ‘The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts. 9 ‘The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the LORD of hosts…”
20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:
‘ I will shake heaven and earth.
22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.


As already mentioned, Haggai prophesied after the Babylonian captivity. Specifically, Haggai prophesied to encourage and strengthen those who had returned from the captivity in rebuilding the Temple. The historical background is contained in Ezra and Nehemiah. There were actually some present that remembered the Temple of Solomon and when they saw this latter, humble Temple of Zerubabel, they wept when they considered the contrast.

Haggai spoke to them by way of encouragement and prophesied about future plans God has for the Temple in Jerusalem. He said in verse 9 that the glory of this latter temple would be greater than the former. Furthermore, he prophesies that this will happen WHEN God shakes the heaven and earth and overthrows the strength of all the Gentile kingdoms and nations with all their armies.

All of this prophecy concerns the Temple in Jerusalem. Observe that in verse 9 Haggai says, “and in this place I will give peace…” This is in beautiful harmony with Isaiah’s prophecy about the Lord’s House in Zion and the nations flowing to it and the peace that will be brought between the nations as a result of the Messiah’s reign.

What is most significant for this discussion, however, is that Paul quoted this passage in Hebrews 12 as being part of our future hope. And he used this hope exactly the same way that Haggai did, as an encouragement to perseverance in view of the coming eschatological kingdom.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Thus, Paul interprets Haggai 2 as a future, kingdom hope of believers. Grammatically, the time of the “receiving a kingdom” is bound to the shaking of heaven and earth. But the prophecy includes Gentiles coming to worship in the Temple that stood in Jerusalem. This ought to be our model for exactly how the Old Testament prophecies concerning the kingdom and the temple should be understood.


Zechariah 14

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


This is one of the most complete pictures given of events immediately preceding, during and following the Second Coming of Christ. Verses 1-2 speak of the gathering of all the nations of the earth against Judah and Jerusalem. Verse 3 says the Lord will go forth to battle against those nations. Verse 4 says that on that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

There is no opportunity to “spiritualize” this reference since the mountain is not only mentioned by name, but is further designated as the mountain, “which faces Jerusalem on the east.” The remainder of verse 4 through verse 5 describes a cataclysmic geological change that will occur when the Lord stands on the Mountain. Verse 5 closes with the words, “Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with Him.”

Verses 6-9 further describe this Day of the Lord and additional geological changes that will occur in the Land of Canaan. The details of these geological changes are in harmony with other prophecies of the event (cf Ezekiel 47:1-12). And the result is stated at the end of verse 9 as, “And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.”

Verses 10-21 describe conditions and events following the Second Coming.

All the land will be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon. Today, this land is mountainous and it will be literally necessary for this to become a plain in order for the water flow described in verse 8 to be possible. If this is symbolic, then what does the symbolism mean?

Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses. Again, these details are very specific, referencing known locations. If this is not literal, then what is the symbolic meaning? And so on throughout the passage. Every detail of this passage is in harmony with every other passage that speaks of these events and together they form a very complete picture of the Second Coming and Millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem over the whole earth.

Verse 16 specifically speaks of events following the Second Coming. There is no way to imagine that this symbolically describes conditions during the interadvent age because it begins by making reference to “those who are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem” in verses 1-2 and were destroyed in verse 3. There is no escaping this.

Those of the nations who are left will go up from year to year to Jerusalem to worship the King in the Temple. This is in agreement with what we read in Isaiah 2 and 11, and in Haggai. Furthermore, there will be some in Egypt who will resist this requirement and the chastisement will be that there will be no rain. All of this is spoken of concerning events following the Second Coming. So we ask, how do our amillennial brothers interpret the details of this passage? It is one thing to assert that these things will be fulfilled “in a different way.” But we ask again, how then do you say they will be fulfilled? If not literally, then how?


Summary

There are numerous other passages we could reference. Those we have quoted we have interpreted with a consistent, natural hermeneutic. And the result is, all of the details of all of these passages harmonize with each other without contradiction. In fact, using the few passages we have observed in this paper (i.e. Job 19, Isaiah 2, 11, Ezekiel 47, Haggai 2, Zechariah 14), we can construct a simple, chronological, harmony of events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ. It is possible and desirable to construct a much more detailed list using additional passages, and in fact, Chiliasts do exactly that. We do not speak here of the celestial signs that accompany the Second Coming because these are mentioned in other passages. We do not mention the spiritual conversion of Israel at the Second Coming mentioned in Zechariah 12-13. We do not mention the angelic army. These and many other details are revealed in other passages. When all these other passages are considered, a very detailed and complete picture emerges. But the following abbreviated harmony results from using ONLY the few we have chosen to reference in this paper.

1. Immediately before the Second Coming of Christ, all the nations will be gathered to battle against Jerusalem in a great battle that is not named here. The city shall be taken and terrible suffering will ensue. The city will not completely fall, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

2. The Lord, and all the saints with Him, will descend from heaven toward the Mount of Olives.

3. Job will be resurrected to witness this event.

4. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives… And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley. Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.

5. The Jewish remnant will flee through My mountain valley.

6. The Lord will fight against those nations, overthrow the throne of kingdoms, destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms, overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them. The horses and their riders shall come down, very one by the sword of his brother and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

7. The curse on the physical world and the animal kingdom will be removed. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain.

8. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.

9. It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

10. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people. They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

11. The wicked will be purged from the kingdom and the righteous will be given their inheritance. He will divide the land by lot as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel.

12. Conditions of universal peace, safety, holiness and justice will prevail under the rule of Christ. The temple will be the gathering place of worship and instruction for all the saints and of the nations that are left. Many people shall come and say,“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the LORD of hosts…” And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

13. The vast majority will willingly and joyfully submit to the rule of the Messiah because there will no longer be any deception, but the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” But there will be others who are left who will resist the command to come to the Feast of Tabernacles, possibly including some in Egypt. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

As already mentioned, there are scores of other details that could be included in this and a more complete scenario can be constructed when other passages are included in addition to these few. But what we have done is demonstrate that the basis for Chiliasm is a harmony of the Scriptural data, allowing Scripture to mean exactly what it says in the progress of revelation. We challenge our Amillennial brothers to also account for this wealth of Scriptural detail within their system using a consistent hermeneutic.
"For error is plausible, and bears a resemblance to the truth, but requires to be disguised; while truth is without disguise, and therefore has been entrusted to children." - Irenaeus
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#2 User is offline   Dave Taylor Icon

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Posted 07 November 2005 - 12:42 PM

Premil Team,


Quote: (Premill Team)
Introduction

What is the hope of the saints? In a nutshell it is this: The material world in which we live was created perfect but fell under a curse because of man's sin. Our earnest expectation is that according to God's promise, it will one day be restored to the state in which God originally designed it. Man was created to dwell on this earth and the destiny and hope of believers is Christ's coming eschatological Kingdom in which the physical creation will be redeemed from the bondage of corruption. The Bible calls this "a new heaven and new earth." Moreover, our vile bodies will be resurrected and glorified and the Messiah will reign over this world in a Kingdom that will never pass away. When Christ returns, we will be judged and given our reward and inheritance in His kingdom.

We are delighted to read in their position statement that our Amillennial brothers agree with us that the destiny of the saints is not an immaterial heaven, but a physical, material earth that will be restored to its former state at the Second Coming of Christ. In fact, there is much that we agree with in the Amillennial position statement and certain statements are well worth repeating, including this one.



It is a good thing that we can be willing to accentuate and acknowledge the many familiarities we have in our endtime eschatology. Too often when issues of the rapture, advent, millennium, eternal state, etc are discussed on web forums, it is solely the disagreements that are brought to the forefront. This creates an environment which easily fosters hostility, defensiveness, and lack of patience and fellowship within the discussing parties. We are hopeful that all individuals represented here would pray that we can retain proper Christian fellowship, love, and support for each other at all times as we undergo this discussion endeavor.

I personally want to thank Joel and his team for hosting this discussion and allowing me to participate, and Paul for inviting me to be a contributor. I would also like to thank the Berean Call forum, and all of its prior incarnations (Last Trumpet, Jacob's Well, etc...and of special mention Tim and Linda Marie Warner, who have made such a wonderful contributions to many of us who have visited here over the years in providing excellent places to discuss and to examine end-time apologetic resources. We all have been greatly blessed.)

Dave T


Earlier Quote: (Amill Team)
The foremost consideration when studying Scripture must be to establish the contextual meaning of the text, whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and what and when it relates to. We must also let other Scripture corroborate our understanding of it and shed further light on the meaning of the text in question. We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages. If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture.




Quote: (Premill Team)
We could not agree more wholeheartedly. And in view of this statement, we challenge our Amillennial brothers to recognize that the Hope upon which we have agreed was not introduced in the last three chapters of the Bible nor even in the New Testament. It is the Hope of all the saints of all the ages. Indeed, according to the apostle Peter in Acts 3:21, this hope "was spoken by the mouth of ALL His holy prophets since the world began."


Full agreement here.


Quote: (Premill Team)
The Chiliast position does not rest on any single passage of Scripture or even on a dozen.



In an attempt to prevent any misunderstanding on our part, and unfortunate mis-speaking in the future, we would like to request our Debate comrades distinguish in a short summary the characteristic differences between what they refer to as the 'Chiliast position' (of which I believe is intended to be based on the early writings of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc...) in contrast with the modern Dispensational Premillennialism, which was founded and systematized by John Nelson Darby in the 19th Century, and of which the 'mainstream majority' of people who call themselves 'Premillennial' tend to adhere to. It can be brief, for time and effort's sake, but a short list of characteristical differences now will help avoid confusion and misapplication of the common Premillennial view later where it is not warranted.

From our study of the Chiliast view, both from Warner, G. Eldon Ladd, Alford, etc there are as many, if not more stark differences between the ancient Chiliast view (or Historic Premillennialism as Ladd refers to it) and the popular modern Dispensational Premillennial view than there are between ancient Chiliasm and ancient Amillennialism. Hopefully we can avoid drawing too much of modern mainstream Dispensational Premillennialism into this discussion, and focus on the accurate Chiliast flavor aka historic Premillennialism where both of our attentions are focused. If it would best suit all parties, we would be willing to use the specific term 'Chiliast' as opposed to the general and vague term 'Premillennialist' as we dialog in the future if this would prevent confusion....you guys decide what you think would be most appropriate.


Quote: (Premill Team)
It is derived from the progressive revelation and harmony of literally hundreds of verses of Scripture, all considered within their proper contexts, and allowing the straightforward meaning of numerous clear passages to explain those that are more difficult. We must consider everything that "was spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Only then can we affirm with the apostle Paul, "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets." (Acts 24:14)

In our opinion, the weakness of the Amillennial position is that it considers only a small fraction of the Scriptural data. And because it fails to establish the proper contextual understanding of the passages it does use, it comes to erroneous conclusions.



I suppose any discussion of this magnitude could make this same claim from either side; otherwise there wouldn't be a subject of disagreement, would there? Hopefully we can at least, do proper diligence in explaining our perspective diligently.


Quote: (Premill Team)
In this paper, we will demonstrate this harmony of Scriptures regarding that period of time following the Day of the Lord (the Second Coming of Christ). We will show that all of the details prophesied in these passages are accounted for in the Chiliast position. We challenge our brothers to account for all of these details within their system. It is one thing to say that these passages are fulfilled "in another way." It is quite another to explain exactly what this other way is.



We would like to acknowledge at this early stage (as we intend throughout this debate), points where we stand in agreement with important foundational points that our Premil brethren present. In this case, Amillennialism would agree completely that 'the Day of the Lord', as it is found in Scripture in regards to end-time events, is specifically referring to the Second Coming of Christ. This is a point that Premillennialism has within itself as conflicting; however, and many Premillennialists would state that they believe either:

  • The Day of the Lord begins at the Pretib Rapture and lasts 1007 years long. (existing 7 years before the Second Advent and 1000 years after the Second Advent)
  • The Day of the Lord begins at the Second Advent, but is not a literal day, but a symbolic 'day' spanning 1000 literal days
  • The Day of the Lord 'is' the single, literal day of the Second Advent; and no more or no less

    Hopefully our Premill brethren here could clarify their interpretation, but we believe we understand them to hold the #3 position. If so, Amillennialism would agree completely with you on this approach.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    The Hope is found in the oldest Scriptures.

    The oldest book in the Bible, the Book of Job, is the first to record this hope.

    23 "Oh, that my words were written!
    Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!
    24 That they were engraved on a rock
    With an iron pen and lead, forever!
    25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
    And He shall stand at last on the earth;
    26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
    That in my flesh I shall see God,
    27 Whom I shall see for myself,
    And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me! Job 19 (NKJV)


    Job expresses a two-fold hope. One, he foresees the Redeemer "standing at last on the earth" (v 25). Secondly, he expects his body to be resurrected (after his "skin is destroyed") and to see this great event with his own physical eyes (v 26). Because this is the earliest expression of the hope of the saints recorded in Scripture, it will be instructive to consider how this expression is properly understood in the light of progressive revelation. There is both a proper approach and an improper approach.

    In a proper approach, we can observe that there are many details we do not find here that will be added to the expression of this hope later in the progress of revelation. For example, we will later learn that there are two advents of the Redeemer and the resurrection of which Job speaks will occur at the latter. We cannot know this only by reading Job, but it is made clear by later revelation. This advent will follow a great battle. This advent of the Redeemer will include not only resurrection of dead saints such as Job, but also the instantaneous change of living saints into glorified bodies. This advent will be accompanied by judgments. The exact location where the Redeemer will stand will be revealed. And there are numerous other details we could list.



    Amillennial Agreement. We would go further and add, Job chapter 14 gives us more information and detail of this expected end-time event, of which one or two points we find to be in disagreement with the Premillennial paradigm. Notice Job also writes:

    Job 14:12-16: "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. "

    Surely Job is including himself in both the resurrection he speaks of in chapter 14 as the one in chapter 19; therefore we find the same resurrection expectation being described in both passages by Job. However, in this passage from chapter 14, we find that Job tells us that "man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more"....showing that Job was not expecting the heavens to remain and continue in their present state beyond the Second Advent (as Premillennialism believes) but that a drastic change in the present universe is expected to occur at the time of the resurrection; to the point that the heavens be no more. Additionally, Job tells us that 'man lieth down, and riseth not' until this time; and does not create a two-fold or phased resurrection as Premillennialism does. Job, like Daniel (12:1), John (5:28 ), Paul (Acts 24:15), etc...all describe the resurrection as occuring together of all mankind, not of one group (the just) first; then another group (the unjust) being moved to a period in time centuries later.

    Job's clearest rendering then, which truly is Second Advent (as we agree with our Premillennial brethren), is also clearest and most naturally Amillennial because of the destructions of the heavens and of mankind's awaiting for Christ's Coming for resurrection (as we disagree with our Premillennial brethren).


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    To illustrate an improper approach, we will borrow from the interpretation Preterism attaches to this passage. Within the Preterist system, the Redeemer does not actually "stand" on the earth because the Redeemer does not have feet and does not literally come to the earth, except in a "spiritual" sense. Within such a paradigm, Job is not literally resurrected and so the references to his skin, flesh and eyes symbolically mean his spirit. To a Preterist, the "resurrection" of which he speaks is a "spiritual resurrection." Within that system, few if any of the details of Job's statement are to be taken at face value. We consider this to be an improper approach, and in fact, this approach has led Preterists completely outside the pale of orthodoxy.



    We would stand with you in complete agreement that the Preteristic interpretation above is an improper approach, and is completely outside of the pale of orthodoxy. We know that Jesus said He would come again, and it would be physical, bodily, visible, audible, and quite climactic; and that 'our resurrection' would also be physical.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    With this, we will state what we consider to be a fundamental principle of exegesis. Later prophecies build on a foundation of earlier prophecies and the proper way to examine any Bible doctrine is to start at the beginning and trace this progress of revelation forward. In the progress of Revelation, we will see the Hope of the saints first expressed by Job expanded to include a myriad of details. But we will NEVER see the essence of this hope contradicted or superceded.



    Amillennial Agreement.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    This hope is the substance of the Abrahamic Covenant.

    6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
    7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
    8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
    Gen 17

    There was no such thing as Jews and Gentiles at the time of Job, and so it would have been anachronistic for Job to say anything regarding these in the expression of his hope. But beginning with the Abrahamic covenant, God began to delineate specific promises to specific people regarding their Hope. God promised to the descendants of Abraham the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession (v 8) . This is much more than what was revealed to Job, but many more details are yet to be included in this hope and will be part of later revelation.



    This is true, but the NT gives us a 'deeper progressive revelation' to know that the promise was to Christ not to natural descendants, and the only possession that is 'everlasting' is something immortal, imperishable, and everlasting...not a temporal, natural, mortal piece of property. There are many times where the OT mentions 'eternal' or 'everlasting' promises and expectations that can never be fulfilled in a mortal, sinful, earthly environment; but can only be fulfilled in Christ in an eternal, everlasting perspective. The physical land of Israel that many concentrate upon is only one of many eternal promises that have seen a greater and a larger fulfilment in Christ. Many speak of the eternal land promises to Israel to the complete exclusion of the many other old covenant eternal promises that have now been terminated and superceded with the first advent of Christ. They never mention the eternal promises reference the temple, sacrificial system and priesthood etc. etc. that have all been done away with by the Cross.

    Christ is the only resting place in this messed up world. There is no rest in living in Palestine, with the continual threat of Arab attack. Millions of Arab's surround natural Israel with a mind to destroy her. There can be no true rest in that environment. Christ provides the real rest that all Jews need and desire. They can enter into the Promised Land today by faith - if they wish. Graciously, that land is possessed by countless Gentiles and many Jews today. We can all share this land peacefully. It is here the nations don't war. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3). Hebrews 4:8-11 says, "if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his [Christ’s] rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.” This is the Land Israel really needs today. Not the physical temporal fading soil of Palestine.

    The writer to the Hebrews here relates entering into rest under the New Covenant as entering into Christ in salvation. It is a spiritual condition that brings peace to the soul, not a geographical location in the Middle East. It is simply described in this reading as “his rest” – Christ’s rest. Moreover, that rest comes through simple faith in the Saviour. It renders salvation by good works redundant. The rest we have today in Christ, unlike the Old Testament rest, is not possession of physical land but rather Christ. He is the fulfilment of every promise to Israel. He is the fulfilment of every Israeli hope. John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:31, as “he that was to be he should be made manifest to Israel.” Acts 28:20 describes Him as “the hope of Israel.” Simeon testified He was the “consolation of Israel”(Luke 2:25).

    Romans 4:13 says, "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Firstly, the true seed of Abraham is those who come to God “through the righteousness of faith.” Secondly, this company pertains exclusively to the sum-total of God’s elect – His true Church – throughout time. Thirdly, it is they that have become “the heir of the world” today. This promise pertains not only “to Abraham” but also “to his seed.” The physical land-boundaries of Palestine have been superseded by a greater inheritance – “the world.” This is spiritual territory that the Lord promised the disciples when they walked forth in the great commission “through the righteousness of faith.” Jesus said in Mark 16:15, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”Physical Israel would no longer be the sole focus of God’s favour, through their rejection of God’s only provision for sin and uncleanness, the promised land became all nations.

    Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

    That city was clearly the New Jerusalem.

    Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly : wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

    We see the desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    This hope is carried into the Psalms and is not limited to the borders of Canaan.

    7 "I will declare the decree:
    The LORD has said to Me,
    "You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You.
    8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
    The nations for Your inheritance,
    And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
    9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
    You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.
    Psalm 2

    9For evildoers shall be cut off;
    But those who wait on the LORD,
    They shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
    Indeed,



    Notice that when a pot is broken with an iron rod, it is destroyed, not subjegated. It's condition changes and does not continue in its prior state. When the wicked are 'broken', 'dashed to peices', 'cut off', and 'the wicked shall be no more' at the Second Coming, this is not an exercise in rulership, subjegation, or discipline; but rather, their total destruction. The wording of this passage is clear and climatic. There is no protracted survival of the wicked suggested, but rather the decisive destruction of these rebels forever; they are broken in pieces as God hands out His final righteous judgement. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel. Thus, the fulfillment of the analogy of the rod and the pottery.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    you will look carefully for his place,
    But it shall be no more.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
    And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace...




    Does the meek and the wicked inherit the earth or just the meek?

    A peaceful inheritance of a wicked, rebellious earth still subjegated to the plague and curse is no peaceful inheritance at all. Amillennialism would see this fulfillment only possible when the Earth is cleanse and restored to its pre-sin, pre-curse, pre-death state. Peace cannot exist where sin and rebellion continue to occur.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken,
    But the LORD upholds the righteous.
    18 The LORD knows the days of the upright,
    And their inheritance shall be forever.

    19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
    And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    20 But the wicked shall perish;
    And the enemies of the LORD,
    Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
    Into smoke they shall vanish away.
    21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
    But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
    22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
    But those cursed by Him shall be cut off...




    Exactly. The cursed of God shall not continue to live upon the earth for another 1000 years, they will be cut-off by Him when He returns, so that 'the meek can inherit the earth'.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    27 Depart from evil, and do good;
    And dwell forevermore.
    28 For the LORD loves justice,
    And does not forsake His saints;
    They are preserved forever,
    But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
    29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
    And dwell in it forever...




    This is another example where Premill and Amill differ. The Premill model allows the wicked to enter and dwell within the land for an extended 1000 year period after Christ comes in judgment and fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. If the righteous and the wicked dwell together in the land after the Second Coming then it cannot be described as a kingdom of righeousness. There is no peace in it; there is no justice in it. Amillennialism would hold that it is only when sin and the curse are completely removed from the earth and therein dwells righteousness can this Psalm ever be fully and truly fulfilled.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    34 Wait on the LORD,
    And keep His way,
    And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
    When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

    35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
    And spreading himself like a native green tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
    Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.



    Here is another clear marker, to us, that the wicked do not exist on the earth after the Second Advent. We find in regards to the wicked: 'he was passed away', 'he was no more', 'he could not be found', yet Premillennialism has many passages that it attempts to apply to the earth after the Second Advent where the wicked are not passed away and are still present.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;
    For the future of that man is peace.
    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;
    The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
    39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
    He is their strength in the time of trouble.
    40 And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;
    He shall deliver them from the wicked,
    And save them,
    Because they trust in Him. Psalm 37



    Continuing on from before, we find the wicked: 'shall be destroyed together' and 'shall be cut off'.The post Second Advent Earth will not be a residence for the wicked. It will, as our Premill brethren correctly stated, be a place and time "of universal peace, safety, holiness and justice will prevail under the rule of Christ"


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    This hope is continued and expanded in the Davidic Covenant

    12 "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever." 2 Samuel 7

    28 My mercy I will keep for him forever,
    And My covenant shall stand firm with him.
    29 His seed also I will make to endure forever,
    And his throne as the days of heaven.

    30 "If his sons forsake My law
    And do not walk in My judgments,
    31 If they break My statutes
    And do not keep My commandments,
    32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
    And their iniquity with stripes.
    33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
    Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
    34 My covenant I will not break,
    Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
    35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
    I will not lie to David:
    36 His seed shall endure forever,
    And his throne as the sun before Me;
    37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
    Even like the faithful witness in the sky." Selah Psalm 89




    All of the above is speaking of Jesus. His is the established Kingdom. His is the established throne. His is the house that is established forever. The house He built, 'is the house made without hands'. It continues to grow, and it will never be destroyed and shall be established forever!


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    In 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 and again echoed in Psalm 89, God made a promise to David that included at least three elements. 1) David would have a son who would build the temple (2 Sam 7:13 - literally fulfilled by Solomon). 2) David's descendants will not lose the throne despite their sin, although this sin would be severely chastised (Psalm 89). 3) David's throne, house, and kingdom will be established forever (2 Sam 7:29).



    Jesus is David's son who would build the temple...it was the temple He built in three days, the one that is made without hands. It's members cannot be removed from it. It lasts forevermore.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    This hope remains unchanged in the Prophets.

    The Prophetic Books contain an incredible number of details regarding the hope of "the restoration of all things" to which Peter made allusion in Acts 3. And so we have the choice of literally hundreds of verses we could quote. In the interest of space, we will not quote hundreds of verses. Instead, we will offer five passages as being representative of the Hebrew Prophetic Scriptures. These are Isaiah 2, 11, Ezekiel 47, Haggai 2 and Zechariah 14.



    Can we honestly say, however, that 'a restoration of all things' can truly occur, and can truly be substantiated and presented to an earth that remains under the curse where sin and death still plague and reign among mankind? What if rather, we considered an earthly environment where sin and death and the curse were removed by Christ. Wouldn't that alone, constitute the only optimal and fullest possible fulfillment of 'the restoration of all things?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    We choose these for several reasons. Isaiah was a pre-exilic prophet, that is, he prophesied before the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel prophesied during the exile. And Haggai and Zechariah prophesied after the exile. We continue to see later prophecies (Haggai, Zechariah) building on earlier ones (Isaiah). And yet, there is perfect harmony between the eschatological details presented by these prophets. Although we still observe details being continually added as we trace this doctrine, we NEVER see any being contradicted. In addition, these prophecies mention very specific details regarding known geographic features and named locations. They mention specific changes in the physical earth and in the natural order. They speak of details regarding the worship of the saints following the Second Coming and of details regarding the reign of the Messiah on earth following His Second Coming. Are these also symbolic? If so, how?



    We don't see any mention of a thousand years in these references or do we observe any indication that mortals survive Christ's Coming. We also don't see any teaching reference a reign of the Messiah on a millennial earth following His Second Coming.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Isaiah 2

    1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
    That the mountain of the LORD's house
    Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
    And shall be exalted above the hills;
    And all nations shall flow to it.
    3 Many people shall come and say,
    " Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    He will teach us His ways,
    And we shall walk in His paths."
    For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
    And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    4 He shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.


    There are several specific details we would like to point out from this passage. First of all, this prophecy is specifically "concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (v1) The term "Judah" can refer to the son of Jacob called by that name, to a specific people (the tribe descended from him and known by that name) or to a specific place (the land assigned to this tribe which later, along with Benjamin, comprised the southern kingdom). The term "Jerusalem" however can only refer to the city where the Lord chose to place His name. Thus, when the two terms are used together this way, it is highly likely that the place is in view. This also follows from the fact that the vision in fact concerns not only the tribe of Judah but in fact, all nations and people who will come to the geographical place known as Judah and Jerusalem.

    The "mountain of the Lord's house" (v 2) is Mount Moriah within Jerusalem. This is the place where the Lord's house was built by Solomon. When Christ returns, this mountain will stand at the head of the mountains because it will be the center of Christ's Messianic rule. This is stated explicitly in the last phrase of verse 2 and verse 3. Zion is the mountain in Jerusalem where King David built his palace and it came to be used as a synonym for the city. "All nations" (v 2) and "many people" (v 3) will come to Jerusalem and to the house of God (the temple) during the Messiah's reign. Other passages will speak in greater detail about the reason these nations will come to Jerusalem. We will refer to these shortly. In verse 4 we are told that during the reign of the Messiah over this world, there will be no war. The fact that there is currently warfare being waged and blood being shed on six of earth's seven continents certainly proves that these conditions are not now prevailing. Every single detail of this prophecy is corroborated in other passages.



    Q. 1. When did or will the last days commence?
    Q. 2. When did or will the last days terminate?
    Q. 3. When is the "last day" of the "last days"?
    Q. 4. What occurs on "last day" of the "last days"?

    If it is true that "during the reign of the Messiah over this world, there will be no war" then how do you explain the rebellion at the end of the "millennium"? How can you say that they will learn war no more when the wicked clearly gather to battle in the greatest battle of all time at the end of the millennium - as the “sand of the sea” - to confront the saints?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Isaiah 11

    1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
    And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
    2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
    The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
    The Spirit of counsel and might,
    The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
    3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
    And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
    Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
    4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
    And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
    He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
    And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
    5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
    And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
    6 " The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.
    7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
    Their young ones shall lie down together;
    And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole,
    And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
    As the waters cover the sea.
    10 " And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
    Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
    For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
    And His resting place shall be glorious."
    11 It shall come to pass in that day
    That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
    To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
    From Assyria and Egypt,
    From Pathros and Cush,
    From Elam and Shinar,
    From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
    12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
    And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
    And gather together the dispersed of Judah
    From the four corners of the earth.
    13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
    And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
    Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
    And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
    14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
    Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
    They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
    And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
    15 The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
    With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
    And strike it in the seven streams,
    And make men cross over dryshod.
    16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
    Who will be left from Assyria,
    As it was for Israel
    In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


    Verses 1-4 speak of the Second Coming of Christ. This is made clear by the last half of verse 4 (cf Rev 12:5 and 19:15).



    We would disagree here. Verse 1-4 couldn't be a plainer example pointing to the 1st Advent of Messiah. Why? Because the NT tells us that much. We have it, and not our understanding to fall upon. Did not Jesus, the root of Jesus come in wisdom and understanding? Verse 4b does use the same language as Revelation 19, but does that mean it is referring to the end-time? Or are they both simply using the same language? Did not Jesus say, in John 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Did Jesus literally bring a sword with him at His 1st Advent? No, but His Word went out like a sword thereafter, remember what the Hebrew writer told us in 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Can we say this too, hasn't yet happened?

    The New Testament references to, and expositions of, this passage support this supposition and locate it in the intra-Advent period. Throughout the Old Testament the prophets repeatedly spoke, and looked forward to, a period in time when the heathenish Gentile nations would eventually accept the glorious Gospel of truth and would therefore graciously receive salvation. Notwithstanding, before this marvellous change would happen, Messiah had to come and defeat Satan, that great deceiver of “the nations,” and consequently forcefully remove him from his previous haughty place of complete deception of the nations.

    Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies together relating to Christ and the removing of the global deception upon the Gentiles in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. Significantly, Isaiah 11 is one of them. He declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Verse 5 follows verse 4 chronologically. This is necessary from the Hebrew construction. In technical terms, the first verb in verse 5 ("shall be") is a vav-consecutive perfect which means it follows the verb "slay" in time. Thus, verses 5-16 speak of the results of His Coming. Among other details of this passage, we are told of changes that will occur in the natural order. Verses 6-9 tell us that the venom and fierceness now part of the animal kingdom will be no more. In "the restoration of all things" there will apparently be great changes in the instinctive natures and in the organic physiology of the beasts of the earth. They will no longer hurt or destroy. Indeed, it is barely possible to imagine to what extent the animal and plant kingdoms have been affected by the curse. But both will be restored to their pristine state at the Second Coming of Christ.



    Once again, if all is restored at Christ's Second Coming (Premill) how can there be a rebellion at the end?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Verse 10 speaks of Gentiles in this Kingdom just as verses 2-4 of Isaiah 2 spoke of Gentiles in the kingdom. These Gentiles are said to be under His banner, seeking Him, and resting in Him. Thus, according to these prophecies, the blessings of Christ's kingdom are not limited to Israel but encompass Gentiles as well. In every nation are included those who can be described as "the meek of the earth." All of these will be rewarded in the Kingdom of the Messiah. If Israel symbolizes all of the elect in these prophecies, then what do the Gentiles symbolize?


    We believe this is speaking of the present kingdom of God, with the Gentiles included now.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Verses 11-16 speak of the restoration and regathering of Israel. Verse 11 mentions eight specific, named locations from which the children of Israel will be regathered. These can be located on a map. If this is meant symbolically, then what is the symbolic meaning of these places? Verse 13 speaks of the reunification of Israel and Judah. Other passages also speak of this (cf Ezekiel 37). Verse 14 mentions four, specific named peoples who will be subdued under Israel during the Kingdom. These are nations who have historically oppressed the Jews. If this is symbolic, then what is the symbolic interpretation of these four nations? Verse 15 says that the tongue of the Egyptian Sea (Red Sea) will be dried up making a highway for the Children of Israel to travel across. This is also stated in Isaiah 51:10-11 where it is said that it will be just like when God allowed His people to cross the Red Sea the first time when He brought them out of Egypt.

    If all of this is symbolic, then what are the meanings for all of these symbols? We have so far only looked at two passages in the Prophetic Books and already the number of details is rapidly increasing. Jesus said that "not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled." So if these passages do not mean what they say, then please tell us what they do mean.

    Ezekiel 47

    13 Thus says the Lord GOD: "These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.
    15 "This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
    18 "On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
    19 "The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
    20 "The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
    21 "Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance," says the Lord GOD.


    This division of the Land of Canaan in the Kingdom of the Messiah is continued in Chapter 48. The reason for bringing it up is to pose this question. Is this literal? If not, then what is the symbolic meaning of the detailed description of, and references to, known geographic locations? If this is to be taken allegorically, then what is the correct allegorical interpretation? What is the "spiritual" meaning of Hethlon (v 15), Zedad (v 15), Hamath (v 16), Berothah (v 16), Sibraim (v 16) and Hazar Enan (v 17) etc...?



    Ezekiel nowhere tells us this Ezekielian temple is venued at the Second Coming. It was solely a future vision recorded by Ezekiel. At Ezekiel's writing the Herodian temple was yet future, and the New Testament Temple made without hands were yet future. We believe the temple is Christ and the water flowing from Him is spiritual living water. This spiritual water in the vision rises upon the prophet:

    (1) “the waters were to the ankles” (v3).
    (2) “the waters were to the knees” (v4).
    (3) “the waters were to the loins” (v4).
    (4) “the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over” (v5).

    To answer your question, how literally consistent do you want to be? You would probably tell us Revelation 6 is end-time. OK; let's conceed that. You might also tell us the 12 tribes in Revelation 6 are quite literal. You above want us to receive the 12 tribes in Ezekiel 47-48 to be literal as well. But here's the conflict and inconsistency with accepting all of those stipulations. The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation 6 and the 12 tribes mentioned in Ezekiel 48 do not match. Which literal interpretation is in conflict? Which literal interpretation is the most literal?

    Also, how can there be strangers dwelling in the Land as described above, in a post Second Advent setting; when Joel 3 tells us that no strangers will pass through Jerusalem any more?

    To hold to a hyper-literalist view on the temple would require you to believe in the restoration of the abolished sacrifices, which is absolutely preposterous. The sacrifices have been done away forever through the atoning work of Calvary.

    The meat offering – Ezekiel 42:13, 45:17, 46:20.
    The sin offering – Ezekiel 42:13, 45:17, 46:20.
    The trespass offering – Ezekiel 42:13, 46:20.
    The burnt offerings – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:17.
    The peace offerings – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:17.
    The drink offerings – Ezekiel 45:17.

    Also, the Levitical sons of Zadok would be restored (Ezekiel 43:19, 44:15.

    The idea that Ezekiel is predicting a return to Old-Covenant worship is fanciful and is dismissed by numerous New Testament scripture. Christ abolished imperfect ordinance 2,000 years ago. The old system of sacrifices (types) ended at Calvary when Christ became the final sacrifice – forever. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? It is wrong to place greater weight on a symbolic Old Testament prophecy than to the repeated clear, simple and literal teaching of the New-Testament revelation. After all, it is the complete revelation of God’s truth.

    2 Corinthians 3:11-14 similarly says, “For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious … And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.”


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Also note that verse 21 says that the land will be "divided by lot as an inheritance." This is also spoken of personally to the prophet Daniel in Daniel 12 with reference to the resurrection.

    "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." Dan 12:13 (NKJV)

    But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (KJV)


    Question: Will Daniel be resurrected to inherit a portion of the Land of Canaan at the Second Coming of Christ?


    Since Daniel is saved by the shed blood of Christ, He will inherit everlasting life, immortality, and incorruption. His inheritance will be never-ending and unlimited. 'Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard of the things God has prepared for them that love him.' Would you limit Daniel, then, to anything less that the best that Christ has to offer?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Haggai 2

    1 In the seventh month, on the twenty-first of the month, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet, saying: 2 "Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, saying: 3 'Who is left among you who saw this temple in its former glory? And how do you see it now? In comparison with it, is this not in your eyes as nothing? 4 Yet now be strong, Zerubbabel,' says the LORD; 'and be strong, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land,' says the LORD, 'and work; for I am with you,' says the LORD of hosts. 5 'According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you; do not fear!'
    6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts. 8 'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the LORD of hosts. 9 'The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts..."
    20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:
    ' I will shake heaven and earth.
    22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
    I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
    I will overthrow the chariots
    And those who ride in them;
    The horses and their riders shall come down,
    Every one by the sword of his brother.


    As already mentioned, Haggai prophesied after the Babylonian captivity. Specifically, Haggai prophesied to encourage and strengthen those who had returned from the captivity in rebuilding the Temple. The historical background is contained in Ezra and Nehemiah. There were actually some present that remembered the Temple of Solomon and when they saw this latter, humble Temple of Zerubabel, they wept when they considered the contrast.

    Haggai spoke to them by way of encouragement and prophesied about future plans God has for the Temple in Jerusalem. He said in verse 9 that the glory of this latter temple would be greater than the former. Furthermore, he prophesies that this will happen WHEN God shakes the heaven and earth and overthrows the strength of all the Gentile kingdoms and nations with all their armies.

    All of this prophecy concerns the Temple in Jerusalem. Observe that in verse 9 Haggai says, "and in this place I will give peace..." This is in beautiful harmony with Isaiah's prophecy about the Lord's House in Zion and the nations flowing to it and the peace that will be brought between the nations as a result of the Messiah's reign.



    The redeemed of all nations have entered into the peace of God and have been reconciled unto God through the cross. Jesus said in John 14:27, “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” The Prince of peace has caused them to change by conversion. Out goes the old and in comes the new. This can be spiritually applied to our words, deeds or thoughts. Ancient enemies are reconciled within this current spiritual kingdom. They enter into heaven's peace. Romans 14:17 tells us, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    What is most significant for this discussion, however, is that Paul quoted this passage in Hebrews 12 as being part of our future hope. And he used this hope exactly the same way that Haggai did, as an encouragement to perseverance in view of the coming eschatological kingdom.



    The writer to the Hebrews is contrasting the earthly with the spiritual and in essence telling us that the mount spoken of by Haggai is not earthly but rather heavenly...

    Hebrews 12:18 says, "Ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest."

    Hebrews 12:22 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    Thus, Paul interprets Haggai 2 as a future, kingdom hope of believers. Grammatically, the time of the "receiving a kingdom" is bound to the shaking of heaven and earth. But the prophecy includes Gentiles coming to worship in the Temple that stood in Jerusalem. This ought to be our model for exactly how the Old Testament prophecies concerning the kingdom and the temple should be understood.



    We agree. The hope of Haggai's audience at that time, was the expecting coming of Messiah. He came just a few hundred years afterwards and established 'a kingdom that cometh not by observation'. a 'kingdom which has no end'. a 'kingdom whose temple is made without hands'.

    The Gentiles have already come to worship in the Temple. They still do today! Haggai's fulfillment didn't skip the New Testament and the 1st Advent of Christ It found its fulfillment there. The NT temple is Christ and His children; the temple rebuilt in three days; made without hands.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Zechariah 14

    1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
    The city shall be taken,
    The houses rifled,
    And the women ravished.
    Half of the city shall go into captivity,
    But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then the LORD will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
    From east to west,
    Makinga very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
    For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
    Yes, you shall flee
    As you fled from the earthquake
    In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    Thus the LORD my God will come,
    And all the saints with You.
    6 It shall come to pass in that day
    That there will be no light;
    The lights will diminish.
    7 It shall be one day
    Which is known to the LORD-
    Neither day nor night.
    But at evening time it shall happen
    That it will be light.
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    #3 User is offline   Dave Taylor Icon

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    Posted 07 November 2005 - 12:43 PM


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Zechariah 14

    1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
    The city shall be taken,
    The houses rifled,
    And the women ravished.
    Half of the city shall go into captivity,
    But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then the LORD will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
    From east to west,
    Makinga very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
    For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
    Yes, you shall flee
    As you fled from the earthquake
    In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    Thus the LORD my God will come,
    And all the saints with You.
    6 It shall come to pass in that day
    That there will be no light;
    The lights will diminish.
    7 It shall be one day
    Which is known to the LORD-
    Neither day nor night.
    But at evening time it shall happen
    That it will be light.
    8 And in that day it shall be
    That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
    Half of them toward the eastern sea
    And half of them toward the western sea;
    In both summer and winter it shall occur.
    9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
    In that day it shall be-
    " The LORD is one,"
    And His name one.
    10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses.
    11 The people shall dwell in it;
    And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
    But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
    12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
    Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
    Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
    And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
    13 It shall come to pass in that day
    That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
    Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
    And raise his hand against his neighbor's hand;
    14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
    And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
    Shall be gathered together:
    Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
    15 Such also shall be the plague
    On the horse and the mule,
    On the camel and the donkey,
    And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
    So shall this plague be.
    16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
    20 In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


    This is one of the most complete pictures given of events immediately preceding, during and following the Second Coming of Christ. Verses 1-2 speak of the gathering of all the nations of the earth against Judah and Jerusalem. Verse 3 says the Lord will go forth to battle against those nations. Verse 4 says that on that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

    There is no opportunity to "spiritualize" this reference since the mountain is not only mentioned by name, but is further designated as the mountain, "which faces Jerusalem on the east." The remainder of verse 4 through verse 5 describes a cataclysmic geological change that will occur when the Lord stands on the Mountain. Verse 5 closes with the words, "Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with Him."


    Does the first verse say this is the second coming or do you interpret it that way? The Hebrew doesn't say 'the day of the Lord' but rather, 'a day is coming of the Lord' Both the NASB and YLT render a more accurate formal equivilency for this phrase here...don't let the KJV's poor wording cause you to misplace this venue.

    Jesus came to the Mount of Olives and His feet stood there, many many times, in that day! His people came with Him and the multitudes followed him wherever he went, did they not? The living water that flowed out from Christ at the cross secured the redemption of all the saints of all time, whether in the Old Testament (the former sea) or in the New Testament (the hinder sea). The Bible says, in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, “all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation ... For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Does Zech 14:5 tell us the saints came with Him from heaven? We don't see that in the text. Did not the nations gather against Jerusalem and Christ at the 1st Advent? (We can expand further on this if you wish.)

    Verses 6-9 further describe this Day of the Lord and additional geological changes that will occur in the Land of Canaan. The details of these geological changes are in harmony with other prophecies of the event (cf Ezekiel 47:1-12). And the result is stated at the end of verse 9 as, "And the Lord shall be King over all the earth."


    Is the Lord not King over all the Earth in Psalms 10:16?

    Is the Lord not King over all the Earth in Psalms 47:2?

    Is the Lord not King over all the Earth in Psalms 47:7?

    Is the Lord not King over all the Earth in Psalms 74:12?

    Is the Lord not King over all the Earth in Isaiah 6:5?

    Surely this doesn't force these verses to be limited to a post-Second Advent period only does it?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Verses 10-21 describe conditions and events following the Second Coming.



    We don't see any mention or intimation of a thousand years in this passage. Could you please compare and correlate the happenings that occur at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20, including the loosing of Satan, the beginning of Satan's little season, the rise of Gog and Magog, the resurrection of the dead, the subsequent general judgment, and the passing away of the heavens and the earth with them in Zechariah 14?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    All the land will be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon. Today, this land is mountainous and it will be literally necessary for this to become a plain in order for the water flow described in verse 8 to be possible. If this is symbolic, then what does the symbolism mean?

    Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. Again, these details are very specific, referencing known locations. If this is not literal, then what is the symbolic meaning? And so on throughout the passage. Every detail of this passage is in harmony with every other passage that speaks of these events and together they form a very complete picture of the Second Coming and Millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem over the whole earth.

    Verse 16 specifically speaks of events following the Second Coming. There is no way to imagine that this symbolically describes conditions during the interadvent age because it begins by making reference to "those who are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem" in verses 1-2 and were destroyed in verse 3. There is no escaping this.



    Is the destruction of the wicked only limited to the 2nd Coming? Aren't their examples of the wicked being destroyed throughout the bible? Isn't the ultimate place of destruction being cast into the fire? Aren't there people in the intra-Advent age still rebellion against God and still dying and still being cast into the fire just like the rich man of Luke 16?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Those of the nations who are left will go up from year to year to Jerusalem to worship the King in the Temple. This is in agreement with what we read in Isaiah 2 and 11, and in Haggai. Furthermore, there will be some in Egypt who will resist this requirement and the chastisement will be that there will be no rain. All of this is spoken of concerning events following the Second Coming. So we ask, how do our amillennial brothers interpret the details of this passage? It is one thing to assert that these things will be fulfilled "in a different way." But we ask again, how then do you say they will be fulfilled? If not literally, then how?



    Joel 3:29 tells us that at the 2nd Coming, Egypt is destroyed. I don't see any rebels hiding out in Egypt. If they can, how did they escape the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God when Christ returned in flaming vengeance?

    I understand completely how one could try to apply Zechariah 14 to and end-time scenario, because much of the language and wording used would seem to fit with some of the end-time expectations we are given. However, much of Zechariah 14 simply doesn't fit at all with New Testament Christianity; and the fulfillments that Christ brought. It is a return to the OT Judaic system of bondage. I don't believe Christ will throw out the NT in favor of a return to the OT which was faulty. Simply put, it is impossible to reconcile Zechariah 14 with the further revelation given to us in the New Testament.

    The simple, foundational, and landmark teachings of the NT are vastly repealed and removed when you attempt to force Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 47-48 into a future end-time period where sin, death, rebellion, and the curse still are allowed to plague the Earth.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    Summary

    There are numerous other passages we could reference. Those we have quoted we have interpreted with a consistent, natural hermeneutic. And the result is, all of the details of all of these passages harmonize with each other without contradiction.



    Yes, they might harmonize with each other, in light solely of each other, and in light of a Premill model of interpretation. However, when you introduce the teachings, fulfillments, and foundational points of the New Testament into that same Premill model of interpretation of them, then you have HUGE contradictions.

    A continuation if sin.
    A continuation of the curse.
    A continuation of rebellion.
    A continuation of ethnic classes positioning.
    A continuation of physical circumcision.
    A continuation of animal sacrifices for sin offerings.
    A continuation of strangers passing through Jerusalem.
    A continuation of withholding justice and vengeance.
    A continuation of looking for a temporal, mortal possessions...instead of perfect, eternal, immortal ones.

    Fundamentally, we look for a kingdom on earth at the Second Coming that will truly be 'a restoration of all things'; and 'true removal of the curse', a 'true return to peace and paradise and perfect fellowship with the Lord' like things were upon the earth prior to the fall in the Garden, but yet even better. Not worse.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    In fact, using the few passages we have observed in this paper (i.e. Job 19, Isaiah 2, 11, Ezekiel 47, Haggai 2, Zechariah 14), we can construct a simple, chronological, harmony of events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ. It is possible and desirable to construct a much more detailed list using additional passages, and in fact, Chiliasts do exactly that. We do not speak here of the celestial signs that accompany the Second Coming because these are mentioned in other passages.



    Amillennialists would agree with most if not all of the celestial signs that will accompany the Second Coming. We see them too. But we would even take them further (to their most natural and literal extent) and propose that this present sinful world and environment will be destroyed and remade anew, wherein dwelleth righteousness!


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    We do not mention the spiritual conversion of Israel at the Second Coming mentioned in Zechariah 12-13.



    Neither Zechariah 12 nor Zechariah 13 place themselves as being at the 2nd Advent. However, there are several verses and events found within them that the NT places at the time of the 1st Advent; by specific quotation, should we examine those?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    We do not mention the angelic army. These and many other details are revealed in other passages. When all these other passages are considered, a very detailed and complete picture emerges. But the following abbreviated harmony results from using ONLY the few we have chosen to reference in this paper.




    Quote: (Premill Team)
    1. Immediately before the Second Coming of Christ, all the nations will be gathered to battle against Jerusalem in a great battle that is not named here. The city shall be taken and terrible suffering will ensue. The city will not completely fall, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.



    We believe you are mixing up the two Jerusalems. The Lord’s eyes are not concentrated upon an earthly, temporal, physical city that overwhelmingly rejects Christ. His eye is upon the redeemed of God of all nations, kindred and colours, Jew and Gentile. They are His only people that currently inhabit a heavenly city “by faith.” Moreover, it is this choice people that the enemy is truly against and whom the kingdom of darkness directs its real assaults against. The last great battle will be between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of God. It involves all mankind; men will find themselves in either one camp or the other. This is a spiritual battle, not a natural battle. God's people are an elect people of all nations that God has “raised” up and made to “sit together in heavenly places,” notably because they are found “in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). It is these alone that God has blessed “with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places” again “in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

    Galatians 4:25-26 confirms the fact that there are two distinct Jerusalems in the New Testament era, which are the total antithesis of the other, “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” Jerusalem below (which now is) is here figuratively used to represent the wider Christ-rejecting world on earth, and, as such, stands in total contrast to the holy heavenly city Jerusalem, which is above. Jerusalem below is an earthly, temporal, physical city that is under “bondage” and is unquestionably presented as a poignant picture of rebellion. Whereas, Jerusalem above is heavenly and eternal and is presented as the spiritual abode of “free” – all those that possess the “spirit of Christ, Old and New Testament.

    Moreover, Revelation 19 describes the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast. There is nothing in Revelation 19 that would suggest that this is a battle located in Jerusalem city. In fact, earthly Jersualem is not even mentioned in the passage. This is a global conflict between the powers of darkness and the kingdom of God.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    2. The Lord, and all the saints with Him, will descend from heaven toward the Mount of Olives.



    You are partially right. The Lord, and all the saints with Him, will descend from heaven. However, it will be to a regenerated new earth.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    3. Job will be resurrected to witness this event.



    You are connecting a Second Coming passage (Job 19) with a first advent passage (Zechariah 14).


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    4. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives... And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley. Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.



    Christ has already returned and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and established true worship by the working and ministry of the Holy Spirit (as rivers of living water) throughout the earth. Matthew 26:30-31, 27:50-51 says, “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7 speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

    Even Tertullian the Early Church Father who sided toward Premillennialism recognised Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    5. The Jewish remnant will flee through My mountain valley.



    There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    6. The Lord will fight against those nations, overthrow the throne of kingdoms, destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms, overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them. The horses and their riders shall come down, very one by the sword of his brother and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.



    How then do the wicked saturate your future millennium "as the sand of the sea" and fight against Christ and the saints?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    7. The curse on the physical world and the animal kingdom will be removed. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain.



    How can you say this when sin, sinners, death, pain, sorrow, sickness and every other consequence of the fall still remains?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    8. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.



    He is, praise God. Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought. Mark 16:19 records, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them (His disciples), he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

    Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. There, by His Sovereign will, He intercedes for His people. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemy at the cross and gloriously rising from the dead. Hebrews 12:2 says, that Christ “who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

    That decisive victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy was procured at Calvary and resulted in Christ assuming His supreme foreordained office. Once that throne was secured, Christ would then reign from heaven until His enemies are made His footstool thus perfectly fulfilling every detail of that beautiful Old Testament prophecy. This Sovereign rule is NOT a future hope but a current reality.

    This Sovereign rule is NOT a future hope but a current reality. Colossians 2:9-10 says, “For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    9. It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar, ]From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.



    He has been doing that for 2,000 yrs.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    10. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people. They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.



    Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the impending New Covenant order. It is written in a metaphorical style describing the peace and reconciliation that comes through the Gospel. It would be wrong to understand/interpret these words in a literal sense as that is not the intent of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, there is no reason to identify them with the eternal state whether in a supposed future millennium or on the new earth. The “swords” and “spears” in these passages are used to symbolise the weapons of war whereas the “plowshares” and “pruninghooks” are used to represent the tools of peacetime. The weapons of war refer to the arm of flesh whereas the tools of peacetime refer to our trust upon the Lord.

    The Prince of Peace has already come and set up His kingdom, we are waiting for it appearing in all its final and eternal glory at Christ's all-consummating Coming.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    11. The wicked will be purged from the kingdom and the righteous will be given their inheritance. He will divide the land by lot as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Isael



    Not according to what you have outlined above. Where do all the wicked come from that rebel against Christ in the millennium?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    12. Conditions of universal peace, safety, holiness and justice will prevail under the rule of Christ.



    This is inconsistent with the many other Old Testament passages that Premill uses to describe its Premill Kingdom. Can we expand on those (later)?


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    The temple will be the gathering place of worship and instruction for all the saints and of the nations that are left. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts. 'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the LORD of hosts. 'The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts..." And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


    How do the nations survive Christ's climatic Coming.


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    13. The vast majority will willingly and joyfully submit to the rule of the Messiah because there will no longer be any deception, but the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." But there will be others who are left who will resist the command to come to the Feast of Tabernacles, possibly including some in Egypt. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.



    If they resist then they are in rebellion then they are deceived. Despite the devil being bound for a protracted period (regardless of whether that is physically or spiritually), Premils must concede that an incredible wicked host has amassed throughout the thousand years to join Satan in his final rebellion at the end. The unrighteous have grown to such a degree that they are described by the Holy Spirit as being “as the sand of the sea.” These enemies of Christ and His Church then assist Satan on his assault on the righteous. Plainly, Satan is still Lord of the satanic kingdom. Countless unbelievers have been snared by his lie and failed to be translated into the Kingdom of God’s dear Son. Satan still owns and controls the lives of the satanic kingdom (Ephesians 6:12).


    Quote: (Premill Team)
    As already mentioned, there are scores of other details that could be included in this and a more complete scenario can be constructed when other passages are included in addition to these few. But what we have done is demonstrate that the basis for Chiliasm is a harmony of the Scriptural data, allowing Scripture to mean exactly what it says in the progress of revelation. We challenge our Amillennial brothers to also account for this wealth of Scriptural detail within their system using a consistent hermeneutic.


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    #4 User is offline   Roger Samsel Icon

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    Posted 16 November 2005 - 03:37 PM

    Introduction

    In our opinion, some of the material in the Amillennial response strayed from Topic 1. But that does not mean that we think it was unimportant. On the contrary, there are many subjects of disagreement between us and we are as anxious as our Amillennial brothers to get to all of them. These include Ezekiel’s Temple and sacrifices in the Millennium, the history of millennial interpretation in the church, and other subjects touched upon in their response. But neither team can deal adequately with all of these in the first round, nor would the reader be served by the attempt. So if we fail to respond to specific points contained in the Amillennial team’s paper, it is probably because we feel that it was not relevant to the present topic.

    The purpose of Topic 1 was to demonstrate a harmony of Scriptures concerning the events surrounding, and the period of time following, the Second Coming of Christ. From the Chiliast perspective, we demonstrated that within the progress of revelation all of the details of the Scriptural data are accounted for; they harmonize together without contradiction; and this harmony is preserved without removing the texts from their natural contexts or resorting to allegorical interpretation.

    We started with the earliest Scriptures and selected a small sampling of passages from all parts of the Old Testament as representative of the Hebrew Scriptures. We showed that as God’s revelation of the hope of the saints and of the eschatological reign of Christ unfolded, the number of details regarding that time rapidly expanded from the simple confession of faith of Job to encompass many details regarding Israel and the Gentile peoples. And yet, in no case did later prophecies contradict earlier prophecies. They blended together in perfect harmony and served to gradually expand our understanding of God’s plan. Furthermore, every detail was fully accounted for within the Chiliast position.


    General Observations on the Amillennial Team’s Response

    1. The Amillennial Team made no attempt to demonstrate any kind of harmony of the Scriptures from the perspective of their system.

    As we have said, Chiliasm is based on progressive revelation and on a harmony of the Scripture passages that address the eschatological reign of Christ. We had hoped that the Amillennial team would also demonstrate how they build their hope using the progress of revelation and account for the details in the same Scriptural data. We had specifically challenged them in the introduction to this topic,

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    Quote (Premill Team)

    In this paper, we will demonstrate this harmony of Scriptures regarding that period of time following the Day of the Lord (the Second Coming of Christ). We will show that all of the details prophesied in these passages are accounted for in the Chiliast position. We challenge our brothers to account for all of these details within their system. It is one thing to say that these passages are fulfilled “in another way.” It is quite another to explain exactly what this other way is.

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    They did not do this. In our opinion, this exposes one of the fundamental errors of Amillennialism. To the best of our knowledge, no Amillennial writer has ever done this and it is a significant omission not only in the Amillennial team’s paper but also in all the Amillennial works with which we are familiar. The bottom line is, Amillennialism is not derived from a harmony of the Scriptural data, and therefore it cannot account for the details of that data.


    2. The Amillennial response is entirely based on the assumption that the Lord’s coming is “climactic.”

    By “climactic,” what the Amillennial team means is that the Second Coming of Christ is the last event in human history and the eternal state begins immediately on that day. In particular, there can be no unsaved persons present anywhere other than hell after the Day of Lord. This is the major premise of the Amillennial hermeneutic and they repeated it frequently in their response.

    This assumption is the second fundamental error of Amillennialism. One could legitimately suggest as a hypothesis that the Second Coming is “climactic” and then test that hypothesis by the Scriptural data. This would be a legitimate approach. But that is not what Amillennialists do. Amillennialists assume this premise to be true and then use it as an interpretive tool. In other words, they assume Christ’s Second Coming is “climactic” and then use this premise to determine whether or not particular passages refer to the First or Second Advent of Christ. But the same statement (in this case the Amillennial premise that Christ’s coming is “climactic”) cannot be both the hypothesis and the proof of the hypothesis. That is circular reasoning. In a proper approach, one must first determine by some objective criteria whether the passage refers to the First or Second Advent of Christ and then allow the text to speak for itself in dictating whether or not the second coming is “climactic.”

    There are indeed some Second Advent passages that allow for the Second Coming to be “climactic,” but there are NONE that require it. And there are many other passages that when interpreted literally absolutely forbid it. The Amillennial team expressed some hesitancy in interpreting Zechariah 14 as First Advent; nevertheless, they cannot do otherwise and remain Amillennialists. They said:

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    Quote (Amill Team)
    I understand completely how one could try to apply Zechariah 14 to an end-time scenario, because much of the language and wording used would seem to fit with some of the end-time expectations we are given…

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    What are these “end-time expectations”? And from what passages do these expectations come? Can we list these expectations? And if we can, then shouldn’t these expectations be the objective criteria for determining whether the passages are First or Second Advent?

    The Amillennial preference seems to be to interpret virtually all Old Testament passages as being First Advent. They cannot do otherwise. If they agreed with us on virtually ANY of the passages we take to be Second Advent, their premise could not stand and the passages would lead inevitably to Chiliasm. This difficulty is the result of their backwards approach to hermeneutics which we will say more about in the next section. The only Old Testament passage they indicated to be a prophecy of the Second Coming was Joel 3. But admitting that Joel 3 is Second Advent was fatal to their premise that the Second Coming is climactic. We will demonstrate this later.



    3. The Amillennial response seemed anxious to dispense with the Old Testament passages (which cannot be accounted for within their system) and to get to the New Testament.

    The Amillennial team did not offer any support for their position from the Old Testament Scriptures and only responded to ours by appealing to New Testament passages. This exposes the third fundamental error of Amillennialism. The way ANY Bible doctrine should be studied is to start at the beginning and trace the progress of revelation forward. This is because the Biblical authors always assume that their hearers had prior knowledge of earlier revelation.

    All of the OT prophets assume prior knowledge of the Covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic) and base their warnings and exhortations entirely upon them. The post-exilic prophets assumed their hearers were familiar with the prophecies of the pre-exilic prophets (and explicitly said so on several occasions – cf Zechariah 7:7; Daniel 9:5, 6).

    In His prophetic discourses, Jesus assumed His disciples had knowledge of the Old Testament prophets. In the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13), He specifically referenced Daniel 9:27; 11:31 and 12:11 (the Abomination of Desolation). In the same discourse, He also made numerous allusions to Old Testament prophecies, including Isaiah 13:9-13; 24:1, 17-19; 34:1, 2, 3, 8-10; Ezekiel 32:7-8; and Joel 2:10-11). When Old Testament passages are quoted or alluded to, it is assumed that reader is familiar with the passage and its context.

    And in the Epistles, the apostles assumed their readers were familiar with both the Old Testament Scriptures and with the words of Jesus. They frequently quoted or alluded to the words of Christ. Especially in the prophetic passages of the Epistles, there are frequent allusions to the thief in the night, warnings not to fall asleep or to be drunk, a trumpet blast and the angels gathering the elect. All of these references recall the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse with which the readers were familiar.

    Recognizing this fact, our hermeneutic is progressive with later revelation building on earlier revelation. Or to put it more precisely, in our hermeneutic, the earlier revelation provides the contextual understanding for later revelation.

    When we stated this principle in our opening paper on this topic, the Amillennial team agreed with it. However, our Amillennial brethren have clearly demonstrated in their response that in practice, their hermeneutic is backward looking (rather than progressive). They begin with what they term “New Testament Christianity,” which is essentially the Epistles interpreted in a contextual vacuum without any foundation on earlier scripture. They then move backwards through Scripture and impose this a priori interpretation on various prophetic passages in obvious violation of their immediate contexts. This fundamentally flawed approach is no way to discover the truth and has led the Amillennial team to make the following incredible admission:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    I understand completely how one could try to apply Zechariah 14 to an end-time scenario, because much of the language and wording used would seem to fit with some of the end-time expectations we are given. However, much of Zechariah 14 simply doesn't fit at all with New Testament Christianity; and the fulfillments that Christ brought. It is a return to the OT Judaic system of bondage. I don't believe Christ will throw out the NT in favor of a return to the OT which was faulty. Simply put, it is impossible to reconcile Zechariah 14 with the further revelation given to us in the New Testament.

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    No, it is NOT impossible to reconcile Zechariah 14 (which we will consider in more detail shortly) with the New Testament. On the contrary, if we cannot reconcile Zechariah 14 (or any other passage for that matter, let alone the entire corpus of OT prophetic Scripture), with the New Testament, then this should serve as a warning flag that there must be something wrong with our understanding of the NT!

    With this startling admission, the Amillennial team has conceded our primary point in Topic 1, that is, the harmony of the Scriptural data when interpreted normally leads to Chiliasm. So why won’t Amillennialists become Chiliasts? Because they believe that Chiliasm somehow contradicts New Testament revelation. They said:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    Yes, they [the details of the prophetic passages] might harmonize with each other, in light solely of each other, and in light of a Premill model of interpretation. However, when you introduce the teachings, fulfillments, and foundational points of the New Testament into that same Premill model of interpretation of them, then you have HUGE contradictions.

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    But they have interpreted the New Testament in a contextual vacuum. Thus, they are locked into a theological system that implicitly asserts that the Old Testament and the New Testament Scriptures are contradictory and irreconcilable. Therefore, they must either dispense with the Old Testament Scriptures in favor of the New or impose a mystical interpretation on the Scriptures that could never be arrived at through sound methods of Biblical interpretation.

    Chiliasts do not believe that God’s Word contradicts itself. In fact, in the course of this debate, we intend to prove that the same harmony we have demonstrated in the Old Testament Scriptures flows seamlessly into the New Testament. In the course of time, and in accordance with our principle of following the progress of revelation, we will show this first with the Gospels and then with the Epistles.



    Comments on Specific Passages

    Isaiah 2

    The Amillennial team interprets Isaiah 2 as a prophecy of the present age, not a prophecy of the age following the return of Christ. To do this, the passage must truly be removed from its context and none of the terms within it can be interpreted in a natural way that would have been understandable to the hearers. These terms include, “Judah, Jerusalem, the mountain of the Lord’s house, the house of the God of Jacob, Zion, swords, and war.” According to Amillennialism, none of these terms mean what they appear to mean, nor do any of them mean that same thing in this passage that they mean in the rest of the Book of Isaiah. The only justification they offer for this mystical interpretation is,


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    Quote (Amill Team)

    How can you say that they will learn war no more when the wicked clearly gather to battle in the greatest battle of all time at the end of the millennium?

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    This question seems strange considering the fact that Amillennialists do not believe that “war” means “war” either in this passage or in the one to which they are alluding “at the end of the millennium” (Revelation 20). It also seems strange considering the fact that if this is a difficulty for Chiliasm, then it is also a difficulty for Amillennialism. Both systems teach that there will be a great “war” at the end of a long period during which “nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” The fact that they have redefined the word “war” does not remove the difficulty for them. So even if we grant for the sake of argument that “war” means what they say it means, then we could still ask them the same question they asked us. How can you say that they will learn “war” no more when the wicked clearly gather to “battle” in the greatest “battle” of all time at the end of the millennium?

    But to answer the question directly, we believe both things because the Scripture teaches both. There WILL be a long period of peace followed by a final battle. In the progress of revelation, it is only when we get to the Book of Revelation will we learn the exact reason for this. Satan will be imprisoned in the Abyss during the period of peace and will be released from that prison for a short time at the end of the Millennium.


    Isaiah 11 and Romans 15:8-13

    The Amillennial team has the same problem with Isaiah 11. Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11 clearly refer to the same period of time. And so the Amillennial team must also interpret Isaiah 11 as referring to the First Advent of Christ and the present age.

    Just as in Isaiah 2, interpreting it this way results in none of the words in the passage really having any discernable meaning. This includes “wolf, lamb, leopard, goat, calf, lion, child, cow, bear, ox, nursing child, cobra, weaned child, viper, mountain, earth, recover, Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, islands, Israel, Judah, Ephraim, Philistines, west, east, Edom, Moab, Ammon, sea, river, streams, seven.” These simple words now have some mystical meaning that no one can figure out. Is the Amillennial team able to tell us what these words, mean? If so, they made no attempt to do so.

    Their First Advent interpretation is further complicated by the fact that Isaiah 11:4 identifies this Advent as the one at which “He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.” The Amillennial team must fit this expression into a First Advent scenario. They do this by interpreting “He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” as the Words of Christ going forth during this age. But let’s look more closely at verse 4 to see if this interpretation can stand.

    But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
    And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
    He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
    And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.


    Several things about this verse point to a Second Advent fulfillment. “The poor” and “the meek” are both plural terms. These are the people who will be saved in the Day of the Lord. See Psalm 37; Zephaniah 2:3; 3:12. The expression, “He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth” is alluded to in Revelation 19:15.

    Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Revelation 19 has already been agreed between us to be referring to the Lord’s Second Coming. The last expression in Isaiah 11:4 is “…and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.” There are two things about this expression that point decisively to a Second Advent fulfillment. In contrast to “the poor” and “the meek,” “the wicked” is a singular term. It is actually, “and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked one.” Unlike “the poor” and “the meek,” this refers to a single individual. Who is this person? We do not know for certain on the basis of Isaiah’s prophecy alone. But in the progress of revelation, Paul actually quotes this phrase in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, and identifies for us exactly who this wicked one is.

    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


    Thus, the wicked one whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His lips is the man of sin who will appear on the scene shortly before the Second Advent. The other support that the Amillennial team offered for their First Advent interpretation of Isaiah 11 is the fact that it is quoted by Paul in Romans 15. They said:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    Verse 1-4 couldn’t be a plainer example pointing to the 1st Advent of Messiah. Why? Because the NT tells us that much. We have it, and not our understanding to fall upon.

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    Clearly they believe that this quotation proves that Isaiah 11 is First Advent. But let us look closely at this passage in Romans 15:8-13 and see if they are correct.

    8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:
    “ For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles,
    And sing to Your name.”
    10 And again he says:
    “ Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!”
    11 And again:
    “ Praise the LORD, all you Gentiles!
    Laud Him, all you peoples!”
    12 And again, Isaiah says:
    “ There shall be a root of Jesse;
    And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,
    In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”
    13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


    In this passage, Paul strings together four direct quotations from the Old Testament, all of which speak of Gentiles praising God for His mercy. Before we look at these in context, let us observe carefully exactly what Paul says immediately before and immediately after these quotations.

    Immediately BEFORE the quotes he says that Christ “has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God.” In other words, Christ is NOW a servant (or minister) to the circumcision. This means the Jewish people. The expression, “for the truth of God,” means the truthfulness or veracity of God towards the Jewish people. At stake is nothing less than God’s truthfulness. Will He keep the promises He made to the patriarchs? Paul says, Yes, Jesus Christ has become a minister to the circumcision “to confirm the promises made to the fathers.” Jesus could not confirm the promises made to the Jewish people by fulfilling other promises made to other people.

    But on an even more fundamental level, notice that Paul identifies two specific groups within the one people of God. These two groups are the circumcision and the Gentiles. Jesus will confirm the promises made to the patriarchs. Moreover, “the Gentiles will glorify God for His mercy” according to the prophetic Scriptures Paul now proceeds to quote.

    Immediately AFTER the quotes, Paul says, “now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.” The word “hope” ALWAYS indicates a future expectation. It is NEVER used to describe what we have now in this life. It always describes what we earnestly wait for with expectation. As Paul says in Romans 8,

    24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

    So already, this series of quotations is sandwiched between two statements that have to do with future hope and expectation of the fulfillment of God’s promises. That disproves the Amillennial team’s assertion that Paul’s words in Romans 15 place the fulfillment on Isaiah 11 in the present age. When we turn now to look at the original quotations themselves in their Old Testament contexts, what we find is that overwhelmingly, they point to the future reign of Christ in His Kingdom. The first is a quotation of Psalm 18:49 which says,

    49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O lord, among the Gentiles,
    And sing praises to Your name.
    Great deliverance He gives to His king,
    And shows mercy to His anointed,
    To David and his descendants forevermore.


    The second is a quotation of Deuteronomy 32:43. This also points to the Second Advent of Christ.

    Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
    For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
    And render vengeance to His adversaries;
    He will provide atonement for His land and His people.


    The next quotation is from Psalm 117. This is not specific to the Second Advent. However, the next quotation is from Isaiah 11 which as we have seen, is specific to the Second Advent. Therefore, Paul's quote of Isaiah 11 in Romans 15 in no way indicates a First Advent fulfilment of Isaiah 11. As shown above, it is clear from the context of Isaiah 11 and from the immediate context of Romans 15 that Paul had the Second Advent in view.


    Zechariah 14

    The Amillennial team even interprets Zechariah 14 as First Advent. If this passage can be interpreted as First Advent, then we are beginning to wonder whether they think the Second Coming of Christ is mentioned in the Old Testament at all.

    Zechariah 14 opens with a description of a great battle in which “all the nations will come to battle against Jerusalem.” This battle is described in many other prophetic passages. Usually, Amillennialists allegorize these references to Judah and Jerusalem as being New Testament saints and say that the battle metaphorically depicts the forces of evil fighting against the church. But they also usually say that this is something that will happen at the end of the present age. So if Zechariah 14 is a First Advent passage as they claim, then to what does this battle refer? Did all the nations come to battle against Jerusalem before the Lord’s First Advent? If so, why is there no historical record of it? If not, then what is their “spiritual” interpretation of this statement? Please explain to us when and how “the city was taken.” When were “the houses rifled”? When were “the women ravished”? When did “half of the city go into captivity”? When did “the Lord go forth and fight against those nations”? When was there an earthquake that caused the people to flee “as they fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah?”

    All of these details point to a literal and physical wartime scenario. The Amillennial team said absolutely nothing about this. To put it bluntly, if they wish us to take them seriously when they interpret Zechariah 14 as First Advent, then they need to offer a credible exposition of the passage that accounts for all of these details.

    They pointed out in defense of their interpretation that Jesus did in fact “come to the Mount of Olives and His feet stood there, many, many times” (verse 4). This is true of course. But if by pointing this out they mean to imply that this particular detail should be taken literally, then what becomes of all the other details in the passage? During which of the “many, many times” that the Lord’s feet stood on the Mount of Olives did “the mountain split in two from east to west making a very large valley” (verse 4)? During which of the “many, many times” that the Lord’s feet stood on the Mount of Olives did He come “and all the saints with Him” (verse 5)? During which of the “many, many times” that the Lord’s feet stood on the Mount of Olives were the lights diminished (verse 6)? During which of the “many, many times” that the Lord’s feet stood on the Mount of Olives did the Lord strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem with the plague described in verses 12-15?

    Speaking of the plague, they interpreted Isaiah 11:4, “with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked,” as referring to the preaching of the Word of Christ. Do they also interpret Zechariah 14:12-15 as referring to the preaching of the Word of Christ?

    12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
    Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
    Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
    And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
    13 It shall come to pass in that day
    That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
    Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
    And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
    14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
    And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
    Shall be gathered together:
    Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
    15 Such also shall be the plague
    On the horse and the mule,
    On the camel and the donkey,
    And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
    So shall this plague be.


    If not, then to what event in the First Advent of Christ does this refer? We see that they interpret the “western sea” as a reference to the Old Testament and the “eastern sea” as a reference to the New Testament. That is at least a beginning towards giving us their interpretation of the details of this passages. But we would like to know how they arrive at this interpretation? We would also like to know what “summer” and “winter” mean in the same verse?

    They also deny that Zechariah 14:1 actually says “the Day of the Lord.” They said:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    Does the first verse say this is the second coming or do you interpret it that way? The Hebrew doesn’t say ‘the day of the Lord’ but rather, ‘a day is coming of the Lord’ Both the NASB and YLT render a more accurate formal equivalency for this phrase here… don’t let the KJV’s poor wording cause you to misplace this venue.

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    There is nothing poor about the KJV’s wording. The Hebrew phrase in Zechariah 14:1 is Hine, yom ba l’YHWH. Implicit in the Amillennial team’s statement is the idea that there must be some subtle distinction between the formula of Zechariah and that of other prophets that makes Zechariah’s Day of the Lord distinct from the Day of the Lord spoken of elsewhere. This statement does not hold up under scrutiny. We compared the Hebrew wording of Zechariah 14:1 with every other passage in the Old Testament where “Day of the Lord” appears.

    What we found was that the variation to which the Amillennial team referred was a variation in word order, not word choice. Zechariah used the same exact words, as did other prophets. As it turns out, there is great variety in the passages where the expression occurs and there is no set order in which these words must appear. There are also a variety of descriptive phrases mixed into these references. Even the Name of the Lord can be varied in the formulation of the expression. We sometimes see Day of YHWH; sometimes Day of YHWH Sabaoth; sometimes Day of Adonai YHWH Sabaoth. Sometimes we have the Day of the Lord comes. Sometimes we have it comes, the Day of the Lord. Sometimes we have behold the Day comes of the Lord. And sometimes we have behold the Day comes.

    The point is, there are hardly any two references to the Day of the Lord in which the Hebrew wording is identical. And there is nothing extraordinary about the expression in Zechariah 14:1 to distinguish it from these other passages.

    With reference to Zechariah 14, the Amillennial response also points out:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    Joel 3:29 tells us that at the 2nd Coming, Epypt is destroyed. I don’t see any rebels hiding out in Egypt. If they can, how did they escape the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God when Christ returned in flaming vengeance?

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    There is no Joel 3:29, but we believe the reference is to Joel 3:19. This is apparently meant to imply that Joel 3:19 contradicts Zechariah 14:16-19 if both are interpreted literally. This is not true. Joel 3 says,

    18 And it will come to pass in that day
    That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
    The hills shall flow with milk,
    And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
    A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD
    And water the Valley of Acacias.
    19 “Egypt shall be a desolation,
    And Edom a desolate wilderness,
    Because of violence against the people of Judah,
    For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
    20 But Judah shall abide forever,
    And Jerusalem from generation to generation.


    The Amillennial team is apparently assuming that the word "desolate" means “be destroyed” or "cease to exist" or "be utterly obliterated" or something along those lines. But this reference in Joel actually proves just the opposite of what they intend. One cannot say of something that doesn't exist, "it is desolate." So this passage in Joel actually proves that Egypt will continue to exist after the second coming.

    It is very easy to show that the Amillennial team’s interpretation of this word in Joel 3:19 is false by reference to other passages where this word is found. Judah was "desolate" in the days of Isaiah's prophecy.

    "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. Isaiah 1:7

    Both times the word "desolate" occurs it is the same Hebrew word as in Joel 3:19. It simply means "ruined by war" with the implication of being sparsely inhabited or deserted. Consequently, this passage in Joel 3 harmonizes beautifully with every other passage on the subject. And once again, it is demonstrated that our position is based on the harmony of Scripture, down to the very smallest detail.

    The Amillennial team has provided no exposition of Zechariah 14 and the few statements they did make were not credible. In our opinion, they cannot expect the reader to take their interpretation of a First Advent fulfillment of this prophecy seriously with such a poor foundation.


    Hebrews 12:18-28 and Haggai 2

    Hebrews 12 is a passage that we referenced in our treatment of Haggai’s prophecy and the Amillennial team has also made use of it in defense of their position. They said:

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    Quote (Amill Team)

    The writer to the Hebrews is contrasting the earthly with the spiritual and in essence telling us that the mount spoken of by Haggai is not earthly but rather heavenly...

    The hope of Haggai's audience at that time, was the expecting coming of Messiah. He came just a few hundred years afterwards and established 'a kingdom that cometh not by observation'. a 'kingdom which has no end'. a 'kingdom whose temple is made without hands'.

    The Gentiles have already come to worship in the Temple. They still do today! Haggai's fulfillment didn't skip the New Testament and the 1st Advent of Christ. It found its fulfillment there. The NT temple is Christ and His children; the temple rebuilt in three days; made without hands.

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    In view of this, we think it proper to give a detailed exposition of this passage. This is also an excellent opportunity to make the following point: In our opinion, it is impossible to understand the New Testament Scriptures without being intimately familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures. This is especially true of a book like Hebrews that contains scores of allusions and quotations from the Old Testament in every chapter. When Paul (or whoever) wrote the Book, he made these quotations expecting his readers to recognize the quotes and to be familiar with their original contexts. The OT context is NEVER violated but only reinforced. So in addition to simply giving our exegesis of this passage, we also want to offer this as an example of how we treat all New Testament passages that make use of the Old Testament.


    18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow." 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.")
    22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
    25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
    28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.


    Verses 18-21 are contrasted with verses 22-24. The contrast is a simple one. Verses 18-21 refer to the Mosaic Covenant established at Mount Sinai. Verses 22-24 refer to the New Covenant, which the Old Testament Scriptures associate with two Advents of Christ, one as a suffering servant and the second to Lord reign over the world from Mount Zion in Jerusalem. All of the allusions in verses 18-21 are from Exodus 19-20 and Deuteronomy 4-5 and 9.

    Let us look first at verses 18-21.

    We do not agree with the Amillennial team that the contrast is between something old and earthly that could be touched and something new and heavenly that cannot be touched. The text does NOT say that Mount Zion cannot be touched. In fact it CAN be touched. It lies 650 yards to the west of Mount Moriah and has an elevation of 2,549 feet.

    The reason that the author of Hebrews calls Mount Sinai (or Horeb) “the mountain that can be touched” is not to contrast it with a mystical “mountain” that doesn’t really exist. It is because of what he is emphasizing about that mountain and the covenant that was made there. The mountain could be touched but the Israelites were specifically commanded not to do so under penalty of death. That is the point. It was the threat of death contained in that covenant that is the point of the passage. Here is the original context in the Old Testament.

    10 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes.
    11 And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the LORD will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
    12 You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, "Take heed to yourselves that you do not go up to the mountain or touch its base. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
    13 Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.' When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain..."
    16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
    17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
    18 Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly.
    19And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice.
    20 Then the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.
    21 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go down and warn the people, lest they break through to gaze at the LORD, and many of them perish...
    Exodus 19

    18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off.
    19 Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die."

    20 And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin."
    21 So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was. Exodus 20


    As we can see, ALL of the allusions in Hebrews 12 come from these chapters, except one. There is no reference here to Moses’ statement in Hebrews 12:21, “…I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.” This is actually a quotation of Deuteronomy 9:19 in the Septuagint.

    For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was angry with you, to destroy you.

    This is an allusion that the Jewish readers of Hebrews would have instantly picked up on. And once again, the emphasis is on disobedience and death.


    Now let’s look more closely at the allusions in verses 22-24.

    This is not the first place these expressions are used in Scripture. Every one of them has a well-established meaning elsewhere. Amillennialists assume a new meaning for them that is contrary to their meaning elsewhere but there is nothing in the context to signal to the Jewish readers that they should adopt a new mystical meaning. Therefore, we will maintain our hermeneutic of interpreting newer revelation within the context of older revelation allowing words to retain their established meanings and see where this leads us.

    But you have come to Mount Zion…

    Amillennialists stumble at the phrase “you have come” supposing this to be proof that the author is speaking of a mystical, present fulfillment of the hope of the saints. But this is to miss the entire point of the exhortation, which is a warning to persevere in light of Second Advent of Christ. There are many passages referring to Mount Zion and Jerusalem as the City of God in the Old Testament in the context of the Millennium and the New Covenant.

    21 It shall come to pass in that day
    That the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
    And on the earth the kings of the earth.
    22 They will be gathered together,
    As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
    And will be shut up in the prison;
    After many days they will be punished.
    23 Then the moon will be disgraced
    And the sun ashamed; [a reference to the second coming of Christ]
    For the LORD of hosts will reign
    On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

    And before His elders, gloriously. Isaiah 24

    13 "The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
    The cypress, the pine, and the box tree together,
    To beautify the place of My sanctuary;
    And I will make the place of My feet glorious.
    14 Also the sons of those who afflicted you
    Shall come bowing to you,
    And all those who despised you shall fall prostrate at the soles of your feet;
    And they shall call you The City of the LORD,
    Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

    15 "Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
    So that no one went through you,
    I will make you an eternal excellence,
    A joy of many generations. Isaiah 60

    … and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem


    In addition to the last two references explaining this phrase, we would also mention Isaiah 65.

    17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
    For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
    And her people a joy.
    19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
    And joy in My people;
    The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
    Nor the voice of crying.



    …to an innumerable company of angels in festive gathering…

    The word for “general assembly” is “panegore.” The noun form of this word is found elsewhere in the Septuagint Old Testament in reference to the gatherings at the Biblical festivals. The verb form however is found only once in the Old Testament – in Isaiah 66:10. The whole phrase means “… to an innumerable company of angels in festive gathering…” and is translated with this sense in the NIV.

    The word “angel” simply means “messenger.” It can refer to angelic beings or it can refer to human beings (see Luke 7:24) who are sent as “messengers.” The context must tell us whether it refers to men or to angelic hosts. We believe that in this case it refers to human beings and that the reference is to Isaiah 66:10, the only place in the OT where the verb form of this word occurs. Isaiah 66:10 reads as follows in the NKJV…

    10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem,
    And be glad with her, all you who love her;
    Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her…


    The phrase “be glad with her” is in the Septuagint, “panegurisate,” the exact same word as in Hebrews 12. So another way of translating this would be,

    “Rejoice, O Jerusalem,
    and all you that love her, hold in her a festive assembly:
    rejoice greatly with her, all that now mourn over her…”


    Where does the “innumerable company” come from in this? Let’s look at the context of Isaiah 66 and we will see.

    10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem,
    And be glad with her, all you who love her;
    Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her;
    11 That you may feed and be satisfied
    With the consolation of her bosom,
    That you may drink deeply and be delighted
    With the abundance of her glory."
    12 For thus says the LORD:
    "Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
    And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.
    Then you shall feed;
    On her sides shall you be carried,
    And be dandled on her knees.
    13 As one whom his mother comforts,
    So I will comfort you;
    And you shall be comforted in Jerusalem."
    14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
    And your bones shall flourish like grass;
    The hand of the LORD shall be known to His servants,
    And His indignation to His enemies…
    18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD.
    22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth
    Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
    "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass
    That from one New Moon to another,
    And from one Sabbath to another,
    All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD…”
    Isaiah 66


    Thus, according to this passage, the ”innumerable company of messengers in festive gathering” are the redeemed of the Gentiles who come to worship the Lord in Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom.


    …and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven…

    Who is “the firstborn”? It is almost always assumed that “the firstborn” in this verse refers to the Lord Jesus. But it CANNOT refer to Him because the word is plural. So my question, “Who is the firstborn?” must be reworded. Who are “the firstborn”? This is a reference to Exodus 4.

    21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.""'

    The word “church” is used more than 70 times in the Old Testament in reference to Israel (see Acts 7:38; Deut 9:10; 18:16). Does this mean that everyone who is born Jewish has a part in the New Covenant? Absolutely not! These people are further distinguished by the phrase “who are written in heaven.” In other words, it is not ALL of the firstborn ones who have a place in the New Covenant and in the Kingdom, but only those who are written in heaven.

    In summary, when he says, “to an innumerable company of messengers in festive gathering and to the assembly of the firstborn who are written in heaven” he is referring to Gentiles and Jews in the Kingdom. That is the critical background and context for understanding this passage. From there, the author moves into his quotation of Haggai 2 which we used in our opening paper for this topic.

    Verse 26 is a quotation of Haggai 2 verses 6 and 21. Here again is the Old Testament context.

    6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: "Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts... 9 "The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts." And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts…"
    20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:
    "I will shake heaven and earth.
    22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
    I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.



    We are amazed that the Amillennial team still sees a First Advent fulfillment of this passage. To claim that this was fulfilled in the First Advent removes the force of Paul’s warning to the Hebrews in verses 25-29 where he is clearly warning them on the basis of a future Advent of Christ, not a past Advent. It would seem then, that it is not only in the Old Testament but even in the New Testament that we cannot agree which passages speak of the Second Coming.

    The purpose of the passage in Hebrews is an exhortation to faithfulness and perseverance in view of what God will do at the Second Advent of Christ. We believe we have interpreted this passage at face value. When this is done, this passage harmonizes beautifully with the Old Testament Scriptures without contradiction. There is no conflict between the details of this passage as we have literally interpreted it and anything we have learned from the Old Testament passages so far examined. All harmonize perfectly. It is only when we attempt to interpret the New Testament without the proper context that we end up with irreconcilable conflicts and contradictions.



    Ezekiel 47

    In response to our comments on Ezekiel 47, the Amillennial team wrote:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote (Amill Team)

    Ezekiel nowhere tells us this Ezekielian temple is venued at the Second Coming.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What is the evidence for a future fulfillment of this passage? First, there has been no past fulfillment. This prophecy goes on for nine chapters (Ezekiel 40-48) describing this temple. There is an enormous amount of detail, more than enough to recognize that this temple has never been built. Therefore, if there is no future fulfillment then this prophecy will remain forever unfulfilled. In our view of Scripture, that is impossible.

    Secondly, this passage harmonizes with other passages that speak of temple worship in the Kingdom (Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Haggai 2). We have already given our reasons for taking those passages as Second Advent.

    Thirdly, the prophecy of the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 is just one prophecy in a series that goes back to chapter 36. The prophecies in this series are all parallel. They coincide in time, but emphasize different aspects. How do we know this? Because every single one of these prophesies is repeated elsewhere. While Ezekiel introduces details not explicit elsewhere, not one of these prophecies is unique to him. This series of prophecies includes the following:

    Ezekiel 36:1-15 Prophecy to the Mountains of Israel - The restoration of the physical land and Canaan.

    Ezekiel 36:16-38 Prophecy to the People of Israel - A rebuke to the people of Israel who are scattered among all the nations of the world because of their wickedness. Nevertheless, God will restore them spiritually and cleanse them from their wickedness in order to enable them to inhabit the land.

    Ezekiel 37:1-14 Prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones - The physical resurrection of the dead saints.

    Ezekiel 37:15-28 Prophecy of the Restoration of the Davidic Kingdom

    Ezekiel 38:1 – 39:29 Prophecy Against the Nations Who Come Against Israel - A prophecy against the armies of the world who unite in the last days to fight against Judah and Jerusalem. God Himself will fight against them. This prophecy is obviously parallel with Zechariah 14.

    Ezekiel 40 – 48 Prophecy of the Description of Jerusalem and the Temple in the Kingdom

    It is Chapter 47 from this prophecy that we originally quoted. It is beyond the scope of Topic 1 to defend the fulfillment of the entire prophecy and the worship described there. That is for a later topic. But we are prepared to go through the prophecy in detail at the right time.

    The Scriptures are very explicit in saying that the physical land of Canaan will be the eternal inheritance of the redeemed remnant of Israel in the Kingdom of God (see Ezekiel 36:1-15 above as well as our original comments on Ezekiel 47). In our original comments on Chapter 47, which describes the partitioning of the Land of Canaan in the Kingdom, we asked the Amillennial team the following specific question:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote (Premill Team)

    Also note that verse 21 says that the land will be "divided by lot as an inheritance." This is also spoken of personally to the prophet Daniel in Daniel 12 with referecne to the resurrection.

    "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." Dan 12:13 (NKJV)

    But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
    (KJV)

    Question: Will Daniel be resurrected to inherit a portion of the Land of Canaan at the Second Coming of Christ?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Their answer is very revealing. They said:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote (Amill Team)

    Since Daniel is saved by the shed blood of Christ, He will inherit everlasting life, immortality, and incorruption. His inheritance will be never-ending and unlimited. 'Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard of the things God has prepared for them that love him. Would you limit Daniel, then, to anything less than the best that Christ has to offer?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What does this answer reveal? First, notice that the direct answer to our question was, No, they do NOT believe that Daniel will be resurrected to inherit a portion of the Land of Canaan in the Kingdom of Christ, even though this is the explicit teaching of these Scriptures. Thus, their position requires them to disbelieve portions of Scripture.

    Second, notice that in the same breath in which they deny this teaching, their language appears to exalt Christ. Amillennialism, while it appears to glorify and exalt Jesus on the surface, nevertheless subtly calls God's word into question.

    Third, in an Amillennial environment, a person cannot sit down and read Scripture with understanding, because it is largely symbolic and one cannot sort out the meaning. The plain sense is not true. Thus, Amillennialism effectively removes the prophetic Scriptures from God's people.

    Fourth, notice the quotation they used to support their answer. It is a quotation of 1 Corinthians 2:9 in which Paul was quoting phrases from Isaiah 64:4 and 65:17. What do we find in the context of Isaiah 64-65? Among other things, we find this:

    I will bring forth decendants from Jacob,
    And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
    My elect shall inherit it,
    And My servants shall dwell there.
    Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
    And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
    For My people who have sought Me. Isaiah 65:9-10


    The very Scripture they quote to support their view actually supports ours! Thus, without any willful intention to do so, their view has forced them to handle the word of God in a way that is misleading.

    Finally, in answer to their question, "Would you limit Daniel, then, to anything less than the best that Christ has to offer," we answer a resounding no. We want Daniel to inherit exactly what God promised him. And what could possibly be better than that? So what does the Amillennial team believe is “the best that Christ has to offer”? The only thing they mentioned is “everlasting life, immortality, and incorruption.” But those things are already included in the inheritance literally promised to Daniel at the resurrection. Where exactly do Amillennialists believe Daniel will spend his everlasting life? Is the Amillennial team saying that “immortality and incorruption” are incompatible with a land inheritance? If so, then what happened to our initial agreement that this physical, material earth will one day be released from the bondage of corruption and restored to the pristine state in which God created it and that we will spend eternity right here on this planet? Perhaps we were too quick in declaring that to be a point of agreement?


    Summary

    cont...
    "For error is plausible, and bears a resemblance to the truth, but requires to be disguised; while truth is without disguise, and therefore has been entrusted to children." - Irenaeus
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    #5 User is offline   Roger Samsel Icon

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    Posted 16 November 2005 - 04:44 PM

    Summary

    In Topic 1 we demonstrated a harmony of Scriptures concerning the events surrounding, and the period of time following, the Second Coming of Christ. We started with the earliest Scriptures and progressed through the Old Testament to show that as God’s revelation of the hope of the saints and of the eschatological reign of Christ unfolded, the number of details regarding that time rapidly expanded from the simple confession of Job to encompass many details regarding Israel and the Gentile peoples. And yet, in no case did later prophecies contradict earlier prophecies. They blended together in perfect harmony and served to gradually expand our understanding of God’s plan. Furthermore, every detail was fully accounted for within the Chiliast position.

    The Amillennial team essentially conceded this point but only with respect to the Old Testament Scriptures. In their view, the Old and New Testament Scriptures cannot be reconciled. Thus, they impose a mystical interpretation on the Old Testament. We view this as completely unnecessary and undesirable because the Old and New Testaments do NOT contradict when later prophecies are interpreted in light of earlier prophecies and both are taken at face value. We demonstrated this with our exegesis of Hebrews 12.

    We are now prepared to let our Amillennial brothers have the last word on Topic 1 and we look forward to Round 2.
    "For error is plausible, and bears a resemblance to the truth, but requires to be disguised; while truth is without disguise, and therefore has been entrusted to children." - Irenaeus
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    #6 User is offline   paulma Icon

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    Posted 03 December 2005 - 10:37 AM

    Introduction

    As one reads through the introduction and first three points of the last Premillennial contribution there are a number of assumptions, accusations and conclusions that we feel are inaccurate and that misrepresent the Amillennial team position. When one scrutinizes the same, one quickly discovers that there is little if anything of real substance to consider never mind rebut in the Premillennial opening comments. Their initial point (or charge) is a case in point:

    Quote:
    1. The Amillennial Team made no attempt to demonstrate any kind of harmony of the Scriptures from the perspective of their system.


    The assignment resting upon the Amillennial team in their last post was not to present a detailed outline showing the “harmony of the Scriptures from the perspective of … [the Amillennial] system” but rather to make “a rebuttal/ response” (as per the rules agreed by both teams at the beginning). Our remit was to keep strictly to the arguments of the Premillennial team, evaluate their submission and then rebut the same. This we did and kept our response carefully to points arising from their presentation. The Premillennial team accepted Joel’s proposal that “both teams are required to stay on topic. By this I mean that once the topic team has set the topic for that round, the content of all four posts should pertain to that topic and points within the posts must be related to the topic, with the connection explained if need be.” Notwithstanding, our Premillennial brethren now seem to be pushing us toward breaking the actual discussion criteria. They have quickly forgot the agreed format. We feel for us to deviate off from the current Topic and onto a completely new and diverse presentation on the harmony of the Scriptures from our perspective would have (1) broke the agreed rules, (2) sidetracked the subject matter, (3) confused the reader, (4) added to an already too-lengthy posting.

    We find it amazing that the Premillennial team should use our careful adherence to the agreed rules of the debate as a sign of supposed weakness and as an opportunity to chide us and our argument.

    Quote:
    2. The Amillennial response is entirely based on the assumption that the Lord's coming is "climactic."

    By "climactic," what the Amillennial team means is that the Second Coming of Christ is the last event in human history and the eternal state begins immediately on that day. In particular, there can be no unsaved persons present anywhere other than hell after the Day of Lord. This is the major premise of the Amillennial hermeneutic and they repeated it frequently in their response.

    This assumption is the second fundamental error of Amillennialism. One could legitimately suggest as a hypothesis that the Second Coming is "climactic" and then test that hypothesis by the Scriptural data. This would be a legitimate approach. But that is not what Amillennialists do. Amillennialists assume this premise to be true and then use it as an interpretive tool. In other words, they assume Christ's Second Coming is "climactic" and then use this premise to determine whether or not particular passages refer to the First or Second Advent of Christ. But the same statement (in this case the Amillennial premise that Christ's coming is "climactic") cannot be both the hypothesis and the proof of the hypothesis. That is circular reasoning. In a proper approach, one must first determine by some objective criteria whether the passage refers to the First or Second Advent of Christ and then allow the text to speak for itself in dictating whether or not the second coming is "climactic."

    There are indeed some Second Advent passages that allow for the Second Coming to be "climactic," but there are NONE that require it. And there are many other passages that when interpreted literally absolutely forbid it. The Amillennial team expressed some hesitancy in interpreting Zechariah 14 as First Advent; nevertheless, they cannot do otherwise and remain Amillennialists
    .


    Our position on the "climactic" nature of Christ's Coming is obtained from numerous explicit passages (OT and NT). Unlike the Premillennial paradigm which re-ignites the bondage of corruption (sin, death, the wicked and wars) on the new earth, Amillennialists believe the new earth will be purged completely of every vestige of the fall and will be restored to its final, perfect and eternal state. We believe the new earth will be absolutely sin-free, goat-free and curse-free. We build our position upon that which is expressly, repeatedly and harmoniously taught throughout both testaments. We believe Scripture describes in plain detail the total rescue of the elect and the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement when He appears.

    Quote:
    3. The Amillennial response seemed anxious to dispense with the Old Testament passages (which cannot be accounted for within their system) and to get to the New Testament.


    In the our understanding of the development of God’s revelation in Scripture and the movement between the Old Testament era and our current new covenant period, we see the definite shift from the seen to the unseen, the natural to the spiritual, the earthly to the heavenly and the temporal to the eternal. In short, the imperfect structures, ordinances and priests have been replaced (never to return) by the perfect – Christ; there can be no improvement upon Christ neither can the perfect and the imperfect co-exist on the new earth.

    Quote:
    The Amillennial team did not offer any support for their position from the Old Testament Scriptures and only responded to ours by appealing to New Testament passages. This exposes the third fundamental error of Amillennialism. The way ANY Bible doctrine should be studied is to start at the beginning and trace the progress of revelation forward. This is because the Biblical authors always assume that their hearers had prior knowledge of earlier revelation.


    We feel that any objective Bible student following this discussion will find it hard to accept the Premillennial team’s repeated usage of the phrase “the progress of revelation” when they see their constant undermining of the new covenant reality with their pre-occupation with restoring the old covenant abolished system. They repeatedly re-interpret the New Testament in order to allow their view of the veiled revelation to fit. We believe the opposite should be the way. In our eyes, their school of thought is regressive in its thinking rather than progressive.

    Quote:
    • "in our hermeneutic, the earlier revelation provides the contextual understanding for later revelation."

    • "we will maintain our hermeneutic of interpreting newer revelation within the context of older revelation allowing words to retain their established meanings and see where this leads us."

    • "it is impossible to understand the New Testament Scriptures without being intimately familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures. This is especially true of a book like Hebrews that contains scores of allusions and quotations from the Old Testament in every chapter."




    It is only as we study the detail of their various posts that we can fully grasp the force of what the Premillennial team mean by these three statements. Their import seems to be (as can be gleaned by their constant desire to bring back the old abolished covenant), we should override the fuller revelation of Scripture - the New Testament - in favour of the old covenant custom, teaching and practice. The Premillennial team place an interpretation upon Old Testament passages that the New Testament doesn't allow. It is not simply that they interpret the New in the light of the Old, but they amend the explicit teaching of the New and re-institute structures, practices and ordinances that Christ has eternally removed. The danger of this cannot in any way be underestimated. We believe, it is wrong to place greater weight on a theological school's teaching than to the consistent clear teaching of the New-Testament revelation. After all, it is the complete and final revelation of God’s truth.

    The Premil team rightly said in a previous post:

    Quote:
    we will state what we consider to be a fundamental principle of exegesis. Later prophecies build on a foundation of earlier prophecies and the proper way to examine any Bible doctrine is to start at the beginning and trace this progress of revelation forward.


    We wholeheartedly agree with this statement. However, in practice, our Premillennial brethren's actual approach is seen to reverse this important concept. They continually revert back to Old Testament passages to interpret clear New Testament passages, when the New Testament is the newer, fuller and greater interpretation by which we understand Old Testament passages.

    Job 19

    Quote:
    The only Old Testament passage they indicated to be a prophecy of the Second Coming was Joel 3.


    These comments would explain why our Premillennial brethren ignored our comments on Job 19 and our additional thoughts on Job 14:12-16. Collectively these prove that the Coming of Christ is climactic and demonstrate that the resurrection will not occur "till the heavens be no more."

    Ezekiel 40-48

    Quote:
    there are many subjects of disagreement between us and we are as anxious as our Amillennial brothers to get to all of them. These include Ezekiel's Temple and sacrifices in the Millennium,


    We find it surprising that in challenging our position, our Premillennial brethren present our rejection of the restoration of the Old Testament animal sacrifices as one of their main grounds for opposing Amillennialism. This is something that would concern us as it is not a minor issue; in fact, it has a baring upon one of the most important fundamentals in Scripture - the one-all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. We feel this alone should alarm the Bible student and cause him to question Premillennialism and consider the Amillennial view-point.

    Quote:
    if by pointing this out they mean to imply that this particular detail should be taken literally, then what becomes of all the other details in the passage?


    The Premillennial team boast of being strict literalists in relation to their understanding of Ezekiel 40-48, but when we tested their sincerity on this matter in our last post they simply avoided our query. They carefully navigated round our question: "The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation 6 and the 12 tribes mentioned in Ezekiel 48 do not match. Which literal interpretation is in conflict? Which literal interpretation is the most literal?"

    Rebuilding the Temple

    Which is the greater tabernacle? The earthly or the heavenly? It is of course the heavenly. Hebrews 9:11 says, "Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands." Christ is now in heaven in the true tabernacle which is a more perfect and greater tabernacle. The earthly tabernacle and temple, beautiful as they were, are inferior. Shall Christ leave the perfect temple in heaven for a mere shadow of it on earth? No, and where we read in the prophets about the physical temple we understand it symbolises the spiritual.

    Animal Sacrifices

    Quote:
    What is the evidence for a future fulfillment of this passage? First, there has been no past fulfillment. This prophecy goes on for nine chapters (Ezekiel 40-48) describing this temple. There is an enormous amount of detail, more than enough to recognize that this temple has never been built. Therefore, if there is no future fulfillment then this prophecy will remain forever unfulfilled. In our view of Scripture, that is impossible.


    Ezekiel 40-48 describes the worship of God in the temple of God and identifies it specifically with the different Jewish sacrifices. It is important to remember, Ezekiel’s audience was exclusively Old Testament Jews. Therefore, it seems like he was either trying to depict the impending New Testament era/economy in terms that would be easily understood by the listener/reader or it was a conditional offer which was subject to certain stipulations, which Israel never ever met. The one thing we can categorically state, the Premillennial suggestion that animal sacrifices will be literally restored in the house of God after the Coming of Christ is prohibited by clear New Testament Scripture. Moreover, the one-off nature and eternal significance of the Cross coupled with the explicit (and repeated) teaching pertaining to the same in the New Testament strongly forbids the Lord reintroducing the old covenant temple, animal sacrifices and priesthood.

    The New Testament views the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11). In fact, it shows us that that “vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms, “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” For our Premillennial team to insist on their return is both shocking and highly objectionable. The Premillennial system re-introduces the full abolished old covenant sacrifices: meat offerings (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20), sin offerings (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20), trespass offerings (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20), burnt offerings (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15), peace offerings (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12), drink offerings (Ezekiel 45:17).

    The Premillennial team would try and take us back to the Old Covenant system and re-introduce an abolished system that is unpleasing to God. What they fail to grasp, the substitutionary atonement of Christ is simply prefigured in the Old Testament sacrifices. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. We repeat the question we presented in our last post, which was also ignored, "Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin?"

    Hebrews 10:6 & 8 tells us, "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure ... Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law"

    The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

    Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin."

    Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

    The shedding of His blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption (1 John 1: 7). By attempting to reintroduce animal sacrifices, we believe Premillennialism does great injury to the work of Christ on the Cross, undoes the once all-sufficient sacrifice that Christ made for sin, undermines the eternal nature of the atonement, and disregards numerous New Testament passages that conclusively prove that Christ’s blood sacrifice was final and eternal. The Old Testament system that employed animal sacrifices was nailed to the Cross and blotted out according to the New Testament. Colossians 2:14 plainly declares, speaking of Calvary, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

    When Christ made that final sacrifice for sin He satisfied all God’s holy demands for sin and uncleanness and thus Christ became the final propitiation and substitution for the sinner. Ephesians 2:15 also says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” The idea that Ezekiel is predicting a return to Old Covenant worship and the widespread slaughter of animals in a future millennium is preposterous and is dismissed by numerous explicit New Testament Scripture. Thus our question: Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin?

    One Final Sacrifice for Sin:

    Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."

    Hebrews 9:12 declares, "by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

    Hebrews 9:26 says, “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

    Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

    Hebrews 10:10 says, “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

    Hebrews 10:12 says, "this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

    Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

    Romans 6:10 says, "he died unto sin once.”

    1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

    As Jesus was dying, he cried: “It is finished.” At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can or will ever finish transgression; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary. God was completely satisfied with this spotless once all-sufficient sacrifice of His own dear Son and thus immediately and eternally rent the veil of the temple in twain. Calvary therefore finished the imperfect sacrifices. Mark 15:37 records, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

    From a heavenly perspective the renting of the veil finished the temple sacrifices and oblations. Christ’s vicarious atonement satisfied all the just demands of a thrice-holy God. In this term we see how Christ has met or satisfied all the demands made by the Law and justice of God, on behalf of and in the place of his elect. By His self sacrifice he obtained complete justification for the child of God. The consequence of Christ’s atonement was the putting away of the old, forever, including the subsequent and consequential destruction of the physical Jewish temple.

    We believe our Premillennial brethren's teaching and that of the New Testament are in patent conflict. Their desire to bring back the old covenant system contravenes the plain unambiguous teaching of Christ and the New Testament writers. They ignore the plain instruction of the New Testament scriptures that the old animal sacrifices have been eternally abolished / superseded by Christ's once-for-all sacrifice for sin. The old system of repeated sacrifices (types) was terminated in God’s economy through the once all-sufficient satisfactory sacrifice of Christ at Calvary when God’s only begotten Son became the final atoning sacrifice.

    Judaic Priesthood

    In the Premillennialist scheme, the Judaic priesthood will be fully restored in the form of the Levitical sons of Zadok (Ezekiel 40:46, 43:19, 44:15 and 48:11). They will function in the temple re-igniting the old covenant sacrifices and ordinances. What our Premillennial brethren forget, Zadok (who was a priest in Solomon's temple in 2 Samuel) and his sons are long dead. This priesthood no longer exist. Moreover, there is no need for the old covenant earthly priest, his office was rendered eternally redundant at Calvary. Hebrews 7:11-12 tells us, "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    The book of Hebrews destroys any notion of the restoration of the old covenant priests. We find it fanciful to believe that this defunct priesthood will be restored to compete with Christ in a future temple. Hebrews 7:19 tells us, “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Christ owns the only priestly office that God recognises for all eternity. Hebrews 7:22 confirms, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” For “he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises (Hebrews 8:6).

    We have entered into a new divine arrangement that supersedes the shadow, type and figure. Man has one true heavenly High Priest and requires none other. For our Premillennial brethren to desire for others is in grave error and underlines the dangers of the Premillennial teaching. If they had their way, the new covenant would be replaced by the old. This will never (or can never) happen. The one true eternal king has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf). Hebrews 10:19-21 says, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God."

    The book of Hebrews effectively deals with, and unambiguously rebuts, many of the proposals the Premils present re their supposed future millennium. The writer of the Hebrews compares subjects like the Promised Land, the kingdom, Jerusalem, the temple, priesthood, and animal sacrifices in their typical Old Testament setting and shows their fulfilment at and since Messiah's earthly ministry. We see how the imperfect Old Testament shadows and types were all realised "in Christ" in the New. We see time after time how the Old Testament arrangement with its focus upon the physical temporal earthly is replaced in all these matters by the spiritual, eternal and the heavenly. The Old therefore has been superseded by the New.

    Hebrews 8:6-7 explains, “now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." For our Premillennial brethren to desire the return of the old removed imperfect, shadow and type (which has been eternally removed "in Christ") does great injury to the cross-work. We must remind our brethren, the old covenant with its unsatisfactory imperfect animal sacrifices have now been replaced by the new covenant with its one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. Hebrews 8:8 confirms, "For finding fault (or imperfection) with them" or finding that they were not satisfactory, He made “a new covenant.” Christ has met / satisfied all God's demands. By His self sacrifice he became the perfect eternal sacrifice. Hebrews 7:19 declares, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did."

    These Scriptures expose the Premillennial desire for the restoration of the old covenant system to be ill-founded.

    Circumcision

    In the Premillennialist scheme, circumcision will also be reintroduced again as a sign of the favour and acceptance of God in the physical temple in Jerusalem after Christ’s Coming. They place Ezekiel 44:9 in a supposed future millennium, “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.” We find this Premillennial belief extraordinary because since the cross and “in Christ Jesus” physical appearance means nothing to how God views men. In the new covenant “neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Galatians 6:15). The New Testament tells us, "Circumcision is nothing" (1 Corinthians 7:19).

    Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.” Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.” Again, our Premillennial brethren would try and take us back to the abolished old covenant administration.

    Quote:
    this passage harmonizes with other passages that speak of temple worship in the Kingdom (Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Haggai 2). We have already given our reasons for taking those passages as Second Advent.


    No. This passage harmonizes with the Premillennial thinking on passages like Isaiah 2, Zechariah 14, Haggai 2, that we have demonstrated totally contradicts repeated New Testament teaching and gravely undermines the new covenant arrangement. Anyway, none of these readings speak of the rebuilding of a physical temple in Jerusalem, the slaughter of countless animals and the reinstitution of the Jewish priesthood after the Coming of Christ. These must be imported into the respective texts.

    Isaiah 2

    Isaiah 2:2 says, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.”

    Firstly, the Premillennial team ignored the four important questions we presented in relation to this reading to ascertain their definitive position. This forced us to read between the lines in order to piece together what they hold. The important questions that were avoided were:

    “Q. 1. When did or will the last days commence?
    Q. 2. When did or will the last days terminate?
    Q. 3. When is the "last day" of the "last days"?
    Q. 4. What occurs on "last day" of the "last days"?”


    Despite their evasion, we gleaned much from their denunciation of the Amillennialist position that the last days relate solely to the intra-Advent period and also their expressed relocating of the last days to a supposed future millennial age after Christ’s Coming. By this we see a major point of disagreement. They said:

    Quote:
    The Amillennial team interprets Isaiah 2 as a prophecy of the present age, not a prophecy of the age following the return of Christ. To do this, the passage must truly be removed from its context and none of the terms within it can be interpreted in a natural way that would have been understandable to the hearers.


    We believe the Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.” The last days commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ of which this passage provides indisputable proof. Hebrews 9:26 also says, now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

    1 Peter 1:19-20 also confirm that, “Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world … was manifest in these last times for you.” Peter declared in Acts 2:16-17, alluding to the happenings on the day of Pentecost, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.” John twice testified in I John 2:18, “it is the last time.”

    These passages demonstrate that we are in the end times since Christ’s first Advent and that the last days don’t relate to another age after Christ’s appearing, as Premillennialism imagines. The “last days” clearly relate to the intra-Advent period and find their conclusion at the “last day” – Christ’s Coming. We see the “last day” (singular) of the “last days” (plural) as the all-consummating appearing of Christ, which witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. We believe Scripture shows that the “last days” (plural) terminate at the “last day” (singular) with the raising and judging of both the righteous (John 6:39-44, 54, 11:23-24) and the wicked (John 12:48). In all these references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always the same – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

    Quote:
    These terms include, "Judah, Jerusalem, the mountain of the Lord's house, the house of the God of Jacob, Zion, swords, and war." According to Amillennialism, none of these terms mean what they appear to mean, nor do any of them mean that same thing in this passage that they mean in the rest of the Book of Isaiah.


    Whilst this prophecy was initially given to Judah and Jerusalem, which at the time was the exclusive place of God’s favour on this earth, we do not believe this prophecy is restricted to them. In fact, the detail embodied within this passage proves the contrary and the fact that Isaiah was speaking of a time when the Gentiles would join the Jews in the house of God. We believe that period started with the commission of the disciples nearly 2,000 years ago. The passage declares, “the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

    This is spiritual language describing the great advance of the kingdom of God into the nations of the earth. Daniel 2:35 says, "the stone (Christ) that smote the image became a great mountain (speaking of the kingdom of God), and filled the whole earth." The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world. Christ verified this with his parables re the seed and the leaven growing. This idea is employed by Christ in Matthew 13:31-32 to describe the current advance of kingdom, “The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree … The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.” Like the figurative growth of the stone into a large mountain in Daniel 2, the spread of the Kingdom of God is here metaphorically compared to the growth of (1) a small mustard seed and (2) that of leaven.

    Quote:
    Amillennialists do not believe that "war" means "war" … in this passage


    That is incorrect. We believe that Isaiah 2 (like Micah 4) is specifically speaking of the kingdom of God (“the mountain of the Lord's house”), and the peaceful conditions that exist within that righteous domain. This spiritual kingdom contains the elect of God alone and is free of physical war and physical destruction that exists in the world. Ephesians 6:12 explains, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12 shows us that the Christian’s battle is not against "flesh and blood" (or in the natural physical domain) but "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (or in the invisible spiritual domain).

    Citizenship of the kingdom of God comes through the atoning work of Calvary. Colossians 1:13 confirms that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Whilst we are in the world we are not of it. Jesus said in John 15:19, “ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” The war-free promises relate to all those that enter into the peace of God in salvation.

    Quote:
    Amillennialists do not believe that "war" means "war" … in the one to which they are alluding "at the end of the millennium" (Revelation 20).


    That is incorrect. Isaiah 2 is not speaking of physical conflict and external persecution emanating from outside the kingdom upon the saints (and especially against the Church on this earth before Christ’s Coming in Satan’s little season), but the internal peaceful conditions that eternally exist within the kingdom of God. The true believe that has been united to Christ and truly resides within this kingdom ceases from fighting with the arm of flesh any more. Ancient foes unite in love. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are metaphorically converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).

    Quote:
    It also seems strange considering the fact that if this is a difficulty for Chiliasm, then it is also a difficulty for Amillennialism. Both systems teach that there will be a great "war" at the end of a long period during which "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." The fact that they have redefined the word "war" does not remove the difficulty for them. So even if we grant for the sake of argument that "war" means what they say it means, then we could still ask them the same question they asked us. How can you say that they will learn "war" no more when the wicked clearly gather to "battle" in the greatest "battle" of all time at the end of the millennium?


    Isaiah 2 fits perfectly with the Amillennial concept of the kingdom but totally contradicts the Premillennial idea. Firstly, there are no wicked in our kingdom and there are no physical wars involved or allowed in our kingdom. It is a spiritual kingdom that is inhabited solely by God’s people and who eternally enters into the peace of God. Isaiah 57:19-21 says, describing the peace that is obtained in this kingdom, “Peace, peace to him that is far off (the Gentiles), and to him that is near (the Jews), saith the LORD; and I will heal him. But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.”

    The Premillennial idea is the opposite. Their kingdom occurs after Christ’s Coming and is saturated with billions of wicked (“as the sand of the sea”) who in the end rebel, lifting up their swords again and learning war once more, thus cancelling out the Premillennial interpretation of this passage. We believe passages like Isaiah 2 highlight the contradictions in the Premillennial position. In one breath they argue that Isaiah 2 relates to a millennial period after the Second Coming of the Lord instead of the present last days, however, when we compare it to the detail of Revelation 20 we see that it can’t fit.

    We believe the meek alone inherit the new earth, whereas our Premillennial brethren believe the meek and the wicked both inherit the same. Amillennialism believes it is the glorified saints alone that inherit the glorified earth whereas Premillennialism forces countless mortal humans into its kingdom. We feel many scriptures disallow this idea. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, saying, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" 1 Corinthians 15:50 clearly states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” Premillennialism thinks otherwise.

    Isaiah 11

    Quote:
    The Amillennial team has the same problem with Isaiah 11. Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11 clearly refer to the same period of time. And so the Amillennial team must also interpret Isaiah 11 as referring to the First Advent of Christ and the present age.

    Just as in Isaiah 2, interpreting it this way results in none of the words in the passage really having any discernable meaning. This includes "wolf, lamb, leopard, goat, calf, lion, child, cow, bear, ox, nursing child, cobra, weaned child, viper, mountain, earth, recover, Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, islands, Israel, Judah, Ephraim, Philistines, west, east, Edom, Moab, Ammon, sea, river, streams, seven." These simple words now have some mystical meaning that no one can figure out. Is the Amillennial team able to tell us what these words, mean? If so, they made no attempt to do so.



    The symbolism used in Isaiah 11:6-8 is used to depict the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. This is confirmed in Isaiah 11:9, where we learn, “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” Once again the kingdom of God is described as a mountain – even a “holy mountain.” Moreover, this spiritual mountain is not restricted to a small physical nation in the Middle East, but it embraces all nations, indeed, as "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." In short, it represents the place of God’s favour and presence throughout the globe. Isaiah 11:10 predicted (hundreds of years before Christ’s first coming) that Christ would be the centre-point of kingdom, saying, “in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” He was speaking of the introduction of the kingdom of God at Christ’s first Advent. It was to Him that the Gentiles would seek. From Scripture and history we know, this they have been doing this for this past 2,000 years.

    Paul confirms this, relating Isaiah 11:10 to the spreading out of the Gospel to the Gentiles back nearly 2,000 years ago, a reality that is still being fulfilled in this intra-Advent period. Romans 15:8-12 plainly declares, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43), Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”

    Paul shows the Premil team's locating of these passages in a future millennium to be in error. He relates the millennial kingdom to this intra-Advent period.

    The Premil team claim:

    Quote:
    When we turn now to look at the original quotations themselves in their Old Testament contexts, what we find is that overwhelmingly, they point to the future reign of Christ in His Kingdom. The first is a quotation of Psalm 18:49 which says,

    49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O lord, among the Gentiles,
    And sing praises to Your name.
    Great deliverance He gives to His king,
    And shows mercy to His anointed,
    To David and his descendants forevermore.

    The second is a quotation of Deuteronomy 32:43. This also points to the Second Advent of Christ.

    Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
    For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
    And render vengeance to His adversaries;
    He will provide atonement for His land and His people.



    There is absolutely nothing in Deuteronomy 32 or Psalm 18 indicating they are Second Advent references or do they describe a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom. Psalm 18 simply reveals David’s plea for personal delivery during his day. Paul applies Psalm 18:49 to the spreading forth of the Gospel in this intra-Advent period in the New Testament. The same applies to Deuteronomy 32:43. This chapter identifies the venue and focus of the judgment of God mentioned in the narrative to be the judgment and conquering of Canaan just prior to entering into the Promised Land. The Second Coming is not introduced or described by Moses anywhere in this chapter.

    The persistent misinterpretation and misapplying of many Old Testament passages underlines the defective nature of the Premillennial mode of interpretation. Their fixation with a future millennium leaves no Old Testament passage safe from being relocated there. Their approach to the two above verses is another example where the Premillennial view will take Old Testament verses out of context and present them as Second Coming or post-Second-Coming passages, even though the context is the complete opposite to that. Normally when we view their true setting, we find they are either referring to specific events in the Old Testament or first Advent / Gospel Age fulfilments.

    Quote:
    Immediately BEFORE the quotes he says that Christ "has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God." In other words, Christ is NOW a servant (or minister) to the circumcision. This means the Jewish people. The expression, "for the truth of God," means the truthfulness or veracity of God towards the Jewish people. At stake is nothing less than God's truthfulness. Will He keep the promises He made to the patriarchs? Paul says, Yes, Jesus Christ has become a minister to the circumcision "to confirm the promises made to the fathers." Jesus could not confirm the promises made to the Jewish people by fulfilling other promises made to other people.


    Our Premillennial brethren try to re-interpret this plain passage and re-locate its current fulfilment to a future time period after the Second Coming. We reject this and view it as a blatant misrepresentation of what Paul taught us. Romans 15:8-9 simply tells us that Christ came unto His own (the Jews) as predicted and perfectly fulfilled every promise and prophecy made of Him. There is nothing in the text that would suggest that this relates to a future millennium, rather a current one. The fact is, “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11). It was only after Israel’s rejection of Christ that the Gospel was opened up to the nations.

    Quote:
    Immediately AFTER the quotes, Paul says, "now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." The word "hope" ALWAYS indicates a future expectation. It is NEVER used to describe what we have now in this life. It always describes what we earnestly wait for with expectation.


    We feel it is extrordinary that any believer would believe that "hope" is "NEVER used to describe what we have now in this life" never mind mature believers like our Premillennial brethren. This would concern us as we should not be called to defend such standard truth. In their attempt to justify their beliefs, the Premillennial team try to limit the Christian’s hope solely to the life to come. This is naivety. Hope is an ongoing aspect of the believer’s walk “in this life.” Hebrews 11:1 demonstrates that, saying, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Hope is an act of the will that must be exercised with every promise of God. Whilst we anticipate Christ’s Coming with hope, hope is never restricted to that appearance and events that follow that. In the context of the reading, the promise is the glorious advance of the Gospel throughout the Gentile nations in this intra-Advent period.

    Quote:
    But on an even more fundamental level, notice that Paul identifies two specific groups within the one people of God. These two groups are the circumcision and the Gentiles. Jesus will confirm the promises made to the patriarchs. Moreover, "the Gentiles will glorify God for His mercy" according to the prophetic Scriptures Paul now proceeds to quote.


    There is no spiritual distinction or sub-group "in Christ.” There is no division within the body. We are all one. We all belong to the one cohesive organism, enjoying the exact same blessing and the same promises. We all enter on the same terms on the same level trusting in the same answer. They are all simply sinners saved by grace. Time after time Paul reiterates the fact that one’s nationality has nothing whatsoever to do with the favour of God in this New Testament era – there is expressly “neither Jew nor Greek.” God has clearly no racial favourites, and is restricted by no national borders. The family of God today is rather one single unitary people of all nations that have been unified “in Christ” through “faith” and have spiritually become “Abraham’s seed.” The Church of Jesus Christ – His body – is the sole spiritual mechanism whereby men can enter into the spiritual heritage of Abraham today. It includes all those who are of the “household of faith” (Galatians 6:10). Those who belong to the Church are therefore the spiritual descendents of Abraham – the spiritual house of Israel.

    Quote:
    So already, this series of quotations is sandwiched between two statements that have to do with future hope and expectation of the fulfillment of God's promises. That disproves the Amillennial team's assertion that Paul's words in Romans 15 place the fulfillment on Isaiah 11 in the present age.


    We don’t accept that. Quotation one describes Christ's first Coming to Israel and the fulfilment of His earthly assignment, the result of which was the Gospel going out to the Gentiles. Quotation two relates to the general subject of “hope” and is not restricted in Romans 15 (or anywhere else in Scripture for that matter) to Christ’s Second Coming. We have showed that the context of the narrative is clearly the advance of the Gospel to the Gentiles since the early church.

    Quote:
    When we turn now to look at the original quotations themselves in their Old Testament contexts, what we find is that overwhelmingly, they point to the future reign of Christ in His Kingdom. The first is a quotation of Psalm 18:49 which says,

    49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O lord, among the Gentiles,
    And sing praises to Your name.
    Great deliverance He gives to His king,
    And shows mercy to His anointed,
    To David and his descendants forevermore.



    God’s mercy does not begin after Christ’s Coming but is a current reality. Paul rebuts this thinking in Romans 15.

    Quote:
    The second is a quotation of Deuteronomy 32:43. This also points to the Second Advent of Christ.

    Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
    For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
    And render vengeance to His adversaries;
    He will provide atonement for His land and His people.

    The next quotation is from Psalm 117. This is not specific to the Second Advent. However, the next quotation is from Isaiah 11 which as we have seen, is specific to the Second Advent. Therefore, Paul's quote of Isaiah 11 in Romans 15 in no way indicates a First Advent fulfilment of Isaiah 11. As shown above, it is clear from the context of Isaiah 11 and from the immediate context of Romans 15 that Paul had the Second Advent in view.



    The main aim of our response is to show how Isaiah 11 is expounded within the writings given to us in the New Testament. They provide a clear unambiguous interpretation of such Old Testament prophecies and demonstrate its true fulfilment. The New Testament clearly confirms the current fulfilment of Isaiah 11. Notwithstanding, Isaiah 11 should not simply be understood in a box, but in context with its surrounding passages that also locate Isaiah 11 at the first Advent.

    Isaiah 10 details God's usage of the Assyrian empire as an instrument of wrath and judgment against disobedient Israel of old. Historically we know this is true, both from biblical accounts and historical accounts of the Northern Kingdom's subjugation and exile by Assyria. At the end of Isaiah 10, we also read that this wrath and judgment will not be forever, but that a small remnant who have remained faithful and dependant upon the Lord would return, and Assyria would be destroyed. We know from history, the Babylonians defeated the Assyrians, and that after the Babylonian captivity ended, a remnant of Israel returned out of captivity. We know that during the time of Jesus there was representation then of that remnant showing its offspring from the lineage of the tribes of both the Southern and Northern Kingdoms. The detail embodied within Isaiah 11 is seen fulfilled during the time of our Lord’s earthly sojourn and the effect that it had on the Gentiles.

    Paul uses Isaiah 10 as proof that there will be a remnant of Israelites included with the Gentiles in that great intra-Advent revival throughout the nations, in Romans 9:27-28, saying, “Esaias also crieth concerning Israel (Isaiah 10:20-22, 11:11,16), Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” This is speaking of those that will be saved in this current age.

    When we view Isaiah 11 in connection with Isaiah 10 and Isaiah 12 we find that it must be referring to the first Advent of our Lord. Nowhere does it mention a post-Second-Coming idyllic age. Many, many times it points to New Testament events, and fulfilments that were specific to Christ's incarnation and the period thereafter with the outward spread of the Gospel to the nations. The proper venue of Isaiah 11 can not be determined by Premillennial or Amillennial theory but only by examining the New Testament scriptures can it be accurately found.
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    Posted 03 December 2005 - 01:22 PM

    Hebrews 12

    Quote:
    This is also an excellent opportunity to make the following point: In our opinion, it is impossible to understand the New Testament Scriptures without being intimately familiar with the Old Testament Scriptures. This is especially true of a book like Hebrews that contains scores of allusions and quotations from the Old Testament in every chapter. When Paul (or whoever) wrote the Book, he made these quotations expecting his readers to recognize the quotes and to be familiar with their original contexts. The OT context is NEVER violated but only reinforced. So in addition to simply giving our exegesis of this passage, we also want to offer this as an example of how we treat all New Testament passages that make use of the Old Testament.


    Old Testament passages relating to the Promised Land, Jerusalem, the temple, the priesthood and the animal sacrifices are referenced in the New Testament in order to contrast the inferiority and shadow of the Old in comparison with the excellence and fulfilment of the New. Hebrews is full of this. Just because the New Testament writer alludes to an Old Testament passage doesn’t in any way indicate that the new covenant reality must be changed to the Old Testament shadow and type (which has been removed), quite the opposite. The Old Testament passages and the imperfect administration that existed before the cross are seen to reach their realization in the New Testament fulfilment

    The Old Testament references that we find in Hebrews are simply employed to demonstrate the movement from the type to the anti-type, from the anticipated to the realized, from the imperfect to the true, from the temporal to the eternal, from the earthly to the heavenly. We believe the Old Testament and the New Testament beautifully correlate, and that there is absolutely no conflict or contradiction between the one and the other. Notwithstanding, the old covenant relates to the time before Christ’s earthly ministry and is pointing toward the Coming Messiah, the new relates to His appearance and the introduction of the kingdom of God on this earth. With the introduction of the fulfilment, we saw the removal of the figure and type.

    Quote:
    Verses 18-21 are contrasted with verses 22-24. The contrast is a simple one. Verses 18-21 refer to the Mosaic Covenant established at Mount Sinai. Verses 22-24 refer to the New Covenant, which the Old Testament Scriptures associate with two Advents of Christ, one as a suffering servant and the second to Lord reign over the world from Mount Zion in Jerusalem. All of the allusions in verses 18-21 are from Exodus 19-20 and Deuteronomy 4-5 and 9.


    The whole import and sense embodied within the teaching of Hebrews 12:18-21 and 12:22-24 is the contrast between that which has been removed (the Old Covenant) in favour with that which now exists (the New Covenant). Your references to Exodus 19-20 and Deuteronomy 4-5 and 9 speak of the old covenant and the physical earthly focus of the old system. However, the old administration has been done away with "in Christ." The writer to the Hebrews endeavours to demonstrate this and redirect the Jewish reader from the imperfect earthly system centred in earthly Jerusalem in the Old Testament (that only served as a signpost to Christ) to the "heavenly" kingdom (that has superseded it) that is centred in the New Jerusalem. Today, the Lord’s eyes are not concentrated upon an earthly, temporal, physical city that overwhelmingly rejects Christ. His eyes are upon the redeemed of God of all nations, kindred and colours, Jew and Gentile that currently inhabit the heavenly city “by faith.”

    Hebrews explains how (in this new dispensation) the blessing, hope and reality of the kingdom of God are concentrated in heaven. Hebrews (like the rest of the New Testament) is all about Christ – our heavenly king. Hebrews 1:3 describes how He has "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Here is our hope, our joy and our standing. Christ reigns today on David’s throne over a spiritual kingdom and has made His children “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1). The old ordinances and practices that our Premillennial brethren desire to restore only “serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things” (Hebrews 8:5). We therefore believe that their focus upon natural Israel is mistaken as there is “a better country, that is, an heavenly” that we now desire (Hebrews 11:16).

    The New Testament speaks of the Jerusalem which will appear at the Coming of the Lord “as a bride adorned for her husband” (Revelation 21:2). Amillennialism looks to this city that replaced the natural earthly Jerusalem at the cross.; “for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come” (Hebrews 13:14). The Premillennialist is focused upon the wrong Jerusalem. They are looking for a physical temporal city on earth that is currently "here" now that can be touched, whereas the Amillennialist is seeking that heavenly city, which Christ presently inhabits, that is to come.

    Canaan was always viewed as the Promised Land – the earthly place of rest of the people of God in the Old Testament; however, it was not viewed as the eternal rest. Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

    Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

    Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

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    Let us look first at verses 18-21.

    We do not agree with the Amillennial team that the contrast is between something old and earthly that could be touched and something new and heavenly that cannot be touched. The text does NOT say that Mount Zion cannot be touched. In fact it CAN be touched. It lies 650 yards to the west of Mount Moriah and has an elevation of 2,549 feet.

    The reason that the author of Hebrews calls Mount Sinai (or Horeb) "the mountain that can be touched" is not to contrast it with a mystical "mountain" that doesn't really exist. It is because of what he is emphasizing about that mountain and the covenant that was made there. The mountain could be touched but the Israelites were specifically commanded not to do so under penalty of death. That is the point. It was the threat of death contained in that covenant that is the point of the passage. Here is the original context in the Old Testament.



    The Premillennial team view and interpret many New Testament names, locations, events and practices according to their Old Covenant meaning and working rather than by their New Covenant meaning and outworking. The Premillennial hope, position and understanding seems to be trapped in the old imperfect abolished Judaic system of administration rather than the New Testament reality and fulfilment “in Christ.” The Old seems to take pre-eminence over the New in their thinking. In their endeavour to make Premillennialism fit, they make the heavenly the earthly, the spiritual the physical, the eternal the temporal, the supernatural the natural. They re-interpret the new fuller revelation of the New Testament by the veiled, typical, shadow and imperfect of the Old Testament. They forget that the old has been eternally removed since the cross and replaced by the superior new covenant. Christ is both the reality and the fulfilment of the Old Testament ordinances, practices and Jewish religious offices.

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    Now let's look more closely at the allusions in verses 22-24.

    This is not the first place these expressions are used in Scripture. Every one of them has a well-established meaning elsewhere. Amillennialists assume a new meaning for them that is contrary to their meaning elsewhere but there is nothing in the context to signal to the Jewish readers that they should adopt a new mystical meaning. Therefore, we will maintain our hermeneutic of interpreting newer revelation within the context of older revelation allowing words to retain their established meanings and see where this leads us.



    If by “new meaning” you mean that which has been introduced by Christ in this new covenant period, we plead guilty. The New Testament repeatedly re-directs our eyes away from sinful earthly temporal Jerusalem to the perfect heavenly eternal Jerusalem. In fact, the destruction of the old Jerusalem (along with the temple and the eternally abolished animal sacrifices) vividly confirmed the removal of the previous sole favour and focus upon rebellious Christ-rejecting Jerusalem. Earthly Jerusalem in the Old Testament (Mount Zion) was only an imperfect shadow and figure of the true heavenly Jerusalem in the New Testament (Mount Sion). Galatians 4:25-26 confirms the fact that there are two distinct Jerusalems in the New Testament era, which are the total antithesis of the other, Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

    Natural Jerusalem and her inhabitants are viewed in the New Testament as an apostate city; it stands in total contrast to the holy heavenly city Jerusalem, which is above and is true. God’s blessing and presence is no longer limited to the earthly capital of Israel, but He now dwells intimately where men and women submit to Christ in salvation. Jerusalem below is an earthly, temporal, physical city that is under “bondage” and is unquestionably presented as a poignant picture of rebellion. The old Jerusalem is even likened in this New Covenant period unto Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11, whereas, Jerusalem above is heavenly and eternal and is presented as the spiritual abode of the “free” – all those that possess the “spirit of Christ," Old and New Testament.

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    But you have come to Mount Zion...

    Amillennialists stumble at the phrase "you have come" supposing this to be proof that the author is speaking of a mystical, present fulfillment of the hope of the saints. But this is to miss the entire point of the exhortation, which is a warning to persevere in light of Second Advent of Christ.



    We disagree. The opposite is the truth. In fact, when we view the manner which the Premillennial team re-interprets this plain New Testament passage we find it difficult to take their boast of “sound methods of Biblical interpretation” serious. They change the meaning to such a degree that they would have it mean the reverse of what the Holy Spirit intended it to mean. This is a classic case of taking a passage that is clear in its context and meaning and forcing it into one’s own personal presupposition.
    Hebrews 12:18 says, “For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative) unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

    Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

    These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here and now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and are current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

    Our understanding of Hebrews 12 is corroborated by Ephesians 2:5-6, which says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” We belong to Christ and are therefore spiritually seated with Him today. Ephesians 1:3 also supports, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

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    There are many passages referring to Mount Zion and Jerusalem as the City of God in the Old Testament in the context of the Millennium and the New Covenant.


    We disagree with this; we have left the old, imperfect, temporal arrangement forever and have entered into the fulfilment and reality of the New. The Old Covenant has been superseded by the New Covenant. The New economy isn’t simply an upgrade of the Old, but a comprehensive replacement of it.

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    ... and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

    In addition to the last two references explaining this phrase, we would also mention Isaiah 65.

    17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
    For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
    And her people a joy.
    19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
    And joy in My people;
    The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
    Nor the voice of crying.



    Firstly, we find this amazing. The Premillennialists seem to find a future millennium everywhere they look in the Old Testament, yet they fail to show one direct reference to this thousand years. Because of their lack of evidence they are forced to dump passages relating to the last days (Isaiah 2 and Micah 4) and the new heavens and a new earth (Isaiah 65 & 66) into it. We find all this very strange, because Scripture clearly tells us that the last days relate to the here-and-now (as we have already demonstrated) and that the new heavens and a new earth don’t appear until after the millennium (Revelation 21), not at the beginning as the Premillennial team imagines.

    Secondly, to turn the heavenly Jerusalem into the earthly Jerusalem just because it doesn’t fit Premillennialism is improper. Moreover, to project the current relevance of this passage into a supposed period following the Second Coming of the Lord is unworkable and unacceptable in our view.

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    ...to an innumerable company of angels in festive gathering...

    The word for "general assembly" is "panegore." The noun form of this word is found elsewhere in the Septuagint Old Testament in reference to the gatherings at the Biblical festivals. The verb form however is found only once in the Old Testament - in Isaiah 66:10. The whole phrase means "... to an innumerable company of angels in festive gathering..." and is translated with this sense in the NIV.

    The word "angel" simply means "messenger." It can refer to angelic beings or it can refer to human beings (see Luke 7:24) who are sent as "messengers." The context must tell us whether it refers to men or to angelic hosts.



    What possible objection could any reasonable un-indoctrinated Bible student have to locating the angels in the heavenly Jerusalem? None in our view. Moreover, why would we need to change the meaning of the word used to describe the angels in this passage (angéloon) when it is interpreted and intended to be angels everywhere else in the epistle. This can be seen in Hebrews 1:4, 1:5, 1:6, 1:7, 1:13, 2:2, 2:5, 2:7, 2:7, 2:9, 2:16 and 13:2.

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    We believe that in this case it refers to human beings and that the reference is to Isaiah 66:10, the only place in the OT where the verb form of this word occurs. Isaiah 66:10 reads as follows in the NKJV...

    10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem,
    And be glad with her, all you who love her;
    Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her...

    The phrase "be glad with her" is in the Septuagint, "panegurisate," the exact same word as in Hebrews 12. So another way of translating this would be,

    "Rejoice, O Jerusalem,
    and all you that love her, hold in her a festive assembly:
    rejoice greatly with her, all that now mourn over her..."

    Where does the "innumerable company" come from in this? Let's look at the context of Isaiah 66 and we will see.

    10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem,
    And be glad with her, all you who love her;
    Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her;
    11 That you may feed and be satisfied
    With the consolation of her bosom,
    That you may drink deeply and be delighted
    With the abundance of her glory."
    12 For thus says the LORD:
    "Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
    And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.
    Then you shall feed;
    On her sides shall you be carried,
    And be dandled on her knees.
    13 As one whom his mother comforts,
    So I will comfort you;
    And you shall be comforted in Jerusalem."
    14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
    And your bones shall flourish like grass;
    The hand of the LORD shall be known to His servants,
    And His indignation to His enemies...
    18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD.
    22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth
    Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
    "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass
    That from one New Moon to another,
    And from one Sabbath to another,
    All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD..." Isaiah 66

    Thus, according to this passage, the "innumerable company of messengers in festive gathering" are the redeemed of the Gentiles who come to worship the Lord in Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom.



    As we have already showed, there are absolutely no grounds for changing the "angels" mentioned here in Hebrews 12 into 'the redeemed of the Gentiles who come to worship the Lord in Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom' as they suggest. This is a blatant distortion of the wording of the passage. The only motive for doing so (that we can see) would be to allow Premillennialism to fit. In fact, it highlights the unsafe lengths that Premillennialism must go to in order to make their theology in any way presentable. The Gentile elect are never viewed as the redeemed angéloon in Scripture, they are the redeemed ethnos.

    In their reasoning, the Premillennial team are always trying to take the new covenant arrangement back to the old covenant standard and function. They are endeavouring to conform the new fuller revelation to the old Judaic system. This can't be, and is at the root of their error. This leads to a mistaken pre-occupation with the wrong Jerusalem (natural Jerusalem) - the centre of the old system, instead of "heavenly Jerusalem" that is expressly in view. What they forget is that the old covenant has been replaced by the new.

    We believe that the New Jerusalem will appear at Christ's Coming and will usher in the new heavens and a new earth. This is the beginning of the completely curse-free eternal state. The allusions in Isaiah 65 & 66 refer to the new heavens and a new earth, which we believe is ushered in after the millennium at the Coming of the Lord. The heavenly Jerusalem will descend to a new regenerated earth “wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).

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    ...and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven...

    Who is "the firstborn"? It is almost always assumed that "the firstborn" in this verse refers to the Lord Jesus. But it CANNOT refer to Him because the word is plural. So my question, "Who is the firstborn?" must be reworded. Who are "the firstborn"?



    In establishing the full import of the phrase the “church of the firstborn” it would be prudent to first ask: what is the significance of the usage of the word "firstborn" here (or prootótokos in the Greek) and what / who does it actually relate to? I think there can be little dispute, the reference to firstborn relates to Christ. In the opening comments of the book of Hebrews we are told that God “bringeth in the firstbegotten (or firstborn) into the world" (Hebrews 1:6). The firstbegotten is therefore Christ.

    Scripture makes it abundantly clear in what way Christ is the “firstbegotten.” He is the “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” (Revelation 1:8) “the first and the last” (Revelation 1:11). Hebrews confirms He is “the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). The Lord testifies in Revelation 22:16, “I am the root and the offspring of David.” In this reading the Lord reveals a great mystery and yet a great truth, how He is both before and after King David. (1) He is after David in the sense that He is off his natural “offspring” according to the flesh. However, equally, He is likewise before Him in that He is the spiritual “root of David” (Revelation 5:5, 22:16). The Lord confirmed this truth in His discourse with the Pharisees in Matthew 22:42-46. He asked them, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” In asking this He was also revealing the duality of His nature. As the Son of David He was naturally after him, but as the Son of God He was indeed the firstbegotten of all men.

    The depiction of Christ as the “firstbegotten” is not simply restricted to His eternal character as the Son of God but also to His earthly ministry as the Son of man, where He defeated the grave in the stead of His elect. Colossians 1:15-18 covers these two aspects of His person, saying, Christ “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

    The first reference here relates to His divinity as the Son of God, the second to His manhood as the Son of man. The first relates to who Christ is and is connected to His kingship over “all things created,” the second to what Christ has secured on behalf His redeemed as “head of the body, the church.” The concluding reference, which is clearly referring to Christ’s physical resurrection, describes Christ’s status after triumphing over death and the grave as the prootótokos or the first begotten from the dead. Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.” Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

    It is as “the firstbegotten from the dead” (or as “the firstfruits of them that slept”) that we can see the true significance of the statement: “church of the firstborn.” Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the “first resurrection,” saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos)." Since Christ has conquered the grave on behalf of His redeemed, they can now walk in the fullness of the resurrection life. That is a current reality in this present millennial period. The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Revelation 20:6 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    The Greek word translated "part" in the text is the word meros simply meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to saving faith in Christ have entered into the resurrection life in time and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath. We therefore have our meros or part in “the first resurrection” which commenced near 2,000 years ago with our Saviour. Being “in Christ” the Church sees the current ongoing spiritual resurrection of sinners and also anticipates the second resurrection (the physical resurrection) at His Coming.

    We must therefore disagree with our Premillennial brethren in their conclusion on this subject, We believe the “church of the firstborn” is a reference to the Church of Jesus Christ – period, the redeemed of God throughout the ages. It describes all those that have been born of God and have been mystically united to Christ in salvation. In Hebrews 1:6 the word “firstborn” is singular describing the person of Christ, whereas in Hebrews 12:23 the word is plural describing the overall Church of Jesus Christ. The penitent sinner enters into that privileged standing with Christ upon salvation, and becomes one with the Saviour. Romans 8:29 confirms, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).

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    This is a reference to Exodus 4.

    21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, "Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.""'

    The word "church" is used more than 70 times in the Old Testament in reference to Israel (see Acts 7:38; Deut 9:10; 18:16). Does this mean that everyone who is born Jewish has a part in the New Covenant? Absolutely not! These people are further distinguished by the phrase "who are written in heaven." In other words, it is not ALL of the firstborn ones who have a place in the New Covenant and in the Kingdom, but only those who are written in heaven.



    The word "church" simply means congregation or assembly, notwithstanding, the Scriptures uses the word in two divergent ways (as it does the word "Israel"). Firstly, it can refer to the general gathering of the people in God's house (saved and unsaved), secondly, it can refer to the true elect of God from among the general congregation. Like today, the church has always embodied the professor and the possessor. The Church throughout time (Old Testament and New Testament) has always had two elements to it - the visible Church (or those who outward attend worship) and the invisible Church (those among the outward who are truly saved). It is this second group alone that own the title the "Church of the firstborn" - Christ). Paul says in Romans 9:6-8, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (in the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” It is important to note that there are two Israels mentioned in these chapters – namely natural and spiritual Israel. What Paul is thus saying here is: “they are not all (spiritual) Israel, which are of (natural) Israel.”

    Zechariah 14 / Joel 3:19

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    The Amillennial team even interprets Zechariah 14 as First Advent. If this passage can be interpreted as First Advent, then we are beginning to wonder whether they think the Second Coming of Christ is mentioned in the Old Testament at all.


    The theme of the whole book of Zechariah concentrates totally upon the nature and happenings of the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It prophetically looked forward (500 years before) with anticipation to a day coming of the Lord when the incarnate Son of God would arrive on this scene of time in the flesh. The book reveals, in amazing detail, profound aspects about the Lord’s earthly ministry. In fact, we find 20 different references to the phrase “in that day” in Zechariah – ALL referring to that notable first coming of Christ. Significantly, 7 of the aforementioned allusions are found in Zechariah 14, the chapter that most Premillennialists passionately present as evidence of a future millennial kingdom.

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    Zechariah 14 opens with a description of a great battle in which "all the nations will come to battle against Jerusalem." This battle is described in many other prophetic passages. Usually, Amillennialists allegorize these references to Judah and Jerusalem as being New Testament saints and say that the battle metaphorically depicts the forces of evil fighting against the church. But they also usually say that this is something that will happen at the end of the present age. So if Zechariah 14 is a First Advent passage as they claim, then to what does this battle refer? Did all the nations come to battle against Jerusalem before the Lord's First Advent? If so, why is there no historical record of it? If not, then what is their "spiritual" interpretation of this statement? Please explain to us when and how "the city was taken." When were "the houses rifled"? When were "the women ravished"? When did "half of the city go into captivity"? When did "the Lord go forth and fight against those nations"? When was there an earthquake that caused the people to flee "as they fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah?"


    Amils are split on whether this should be interpreted literally or spiritually. The literal interpretation normally relates this passage to AD 70 after the Gentiles destroyed Christ (in the form of the Roman soldiers); the Gospel then conquered them. Rome was the instrument of that destruction and subsequently became the epi-centre of the Gospel witness for many years after the Cross. The spiritual application relates Jerusalem to the kingdom of God as you claim and the invasion of the Gentiles nations with the Gospel. Either interpretation would be preferred to the one expounded by our Premillennial brethren.

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    There is nothing poor about the KJV's wording. The Hebrew phrase in Zechariah 14:1 is Hine, yom ba l'YHWH. Implicit in the Amillennial team's statement is the idea that there must be some subtle distinction between the formula of Zechariah and that of other prophets that makes Zechariah's Day of the Lord distinct from the Day of the Lord spoken of elsewhere. This statement does not hold up under scrutiny. We compared the Hebrew wording of Zechariah 14:1 with every other passage in the Old Testament where "Day of the Lord" appears.

    What we found was that the variation to which the Amillennial team referred was a variation in word order, not word choice. Zechariah used the same exact words, as did other prophets. As it turns out, there is great variety in the passages where the expression occurs and there is no set order in which these words must appear. There are also a variety of descriptive phrases mixed into these references. Even the Name of the Lord can be varied in the formulation of the expression. We sometimes see Day of YHWH; sometimes Day of YHWH Sabaoth; sometimes Day of Adonai YHWH Sabaoth. Sometimes we have the Day of the Lord comes. Sometimes we have it comes, the Day of the Lord. Sometimes we have behold the Day comes of the Lord. And sometimes we have behold the Day comes.



    We stand by our interpretation of the original in relation to the day of the Lord and refer the Premil team back to our last post. In their response, the Premil team failed to address our query on the same and simply dived into dismissing the Amillennial position. This was our query that was avoided:

    Amillennialism would agree completely that 'the Day of the Lord', as it is found in Scripture in regards to end-time events, is specifically referring to the Second Coming of Christ. This is a point that Premillennialism has within itself as conflicting; however, and many Premillennialists would state that they believe either:

    • The Day of the Lord begins at the Pretib Rapture and lasts 1007 years long. (existing 7 years before the Second Advent and 1000 years after the Second Advent)
    • The Day of the Lord begins at the Second Advent, but is not a literal day, but a symbolic 'day' spanning 1000 literal days
    • The Day of the Lord 'is' the single, literal day of the Second Advent; and no more or no less

    Hopefully our Premill brethren here could clarify their interpretation, but we believe we understand them to hold the #3 position. If so, Amillennialism would agree completely with you on this approach.


    The detail that was prophesied of Christ's first Coming in Zechariah 14:1, was perfectly fulfilled in Christ. The passage reads, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

    This reading refers to the great victory that was wrought through Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. This is a first Advent passage. It describes the benefits or “spoil” of which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. Christ confirms this interpretation in Luke 11 when He alludes to Zechariah 14 whilst speaking of His own assault upon Satan and his dark kingdom. Jesus said, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man (Satan) armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he (Jesus) shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

    This is speaking of Christ’s victory over Satan through His victorious life, death and resurrection and the great “spoil” which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. This is the only reference in the New Testament to Zechariah 14:1 confirming undoubtedly when the spoils would be divided. Christ’ earthly ministry and the introduction of the kingdom of heaven on earth began heaven’s great assault upon Satan and his kingdom. This short period saw the spoiling of the devil’s goods and the disarming of devil’s enormous remit of influence. At every point Satan was decisively defeated on his own territory. The victory was finally secured with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. This opened up the Gospel opportunity to the Gentiles. Jesus also said in Mark 3:27 "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

    Calvary was the place where Satan was bound. This resulted in the spoiling of his goods, the liberating of the prisoner and the enlightenment of the darkened nations. The territory that Satan once exclusively controlled has now been massively invaded by the Lord's subjects and His Kingdom. Those that were once in total darkness can now see. Every enemy of heaven has been finally and completely defeated. All we are therefore waiting for is for the final put down. This occurs at the Second Coming. Colossians 2:14 explains how Calvary saw the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

    Isaiah 53:10-12 confirms this is speaking of Calvary, when he prophesied of Christ’s first Advent and especially Calvary, “it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

    Isaiah 9:2-6 says of the Gospel going out during the intra-Advent period, and the authority and blessings that now is now bestowed in Gentiles through the victory wrought at Cavalry "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting father, the prince of peace."

    Quote:
    This is apparently meant to imply that Joel 3:19 contradicts Zechariah 14:16-19 if both are interpreted literally. This is not true. Joel 3 says,

    18 And it will come to pass in that day
    That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
    The hills shall flow with milk,
    And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
    A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD
    And water the Valley of Acacias.
    19 "Egypt shall be a desolation,
    And Edom a desolate wilderness,
    Because of violence against the people of Judah,
    For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
    20 But Judah shall abide forever,
    And Jerusalem from generation to generation.

    The Amillennial team is apparently assuming that the word "desolate" means "be destroyed" or "cease to exist" or "be utterly obliterated" or something along those lines. But this reference in Joel actually proves just the opposite of what they intend. One cannot say of something that doesn't exist, "it is desolate." So this passage in Joel actually proves that Egypt will continue to exist after the second coming.

    It is very easy to show that the Amillennial team's interpretation of this word in Joel 3:19 is false by reference to other passages where this word is found. Judah was "desolate" in the days of Isaiah's prophecy.

    "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. Isaiah 1:7

    Both times the word "desolate" occurs it is the same Hebrew word as in Joel 3:19. It simply means "ruined by war" with the implication of being sparsely inhabited or deserted. Consequently, this passage in Joel 3 harmonizes beautifully with every other passage on the subject. And once again, it is demonstrated that our position is based on the harmony of Scripture, down to the very smallest detail.



    Joel 3 refers to the complete destruction that accompanies Christ’s Coming. At this climatic event, the wicked shall be destroyed in total and their land and all wickedness shall be dissolved. The Premillennial team overlook the detail contained within Joel 3:15-19 that proves the Second Advent is all-consummating, saying, “The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation.”

    In the Premillennial understanding of Zechariah 14:18-19, Egypt survives the Second Advent and is ushered into a future millennial kingdom. The new earth that arrives at Christ’s Coming, is suddenly contaminated with numerous Gentile strangers. We find this bizarre as the Bible says the new earth is for the righteous alone. Our Premillennial brethren change the destruction of Egypt at Christ’s Coming (Joel 3:19) into the preservation and reward of Egypt in their reasoning. They do this in order to sustain their view that Zechariah 14 is a Second Coming passage. They then populate their millennium with the nation of Egypt (Zechariah 14:18-19). To secure this they change the proper meaning of the Hebrew word shemamah rendered “desolation” in Joel 3 to some type of minor national reprimand, despite the fact that out of 58 mentions of the word in the Old Testament it is rendered “desolation” in 57 references. In the other lone reference it is translated “waste.” The context of Joel 3 proves we are looking at the end-time destruction, an occasion that witnesses the end of Egypt like every other carnal nation.

    Joel 3:15-19 also confirms (in relation to Jerusalem) that “there shall no strangers pass through her any more” (Joel 3:17), yet when we view the detail of the supposed Premillennial passages – Ezekiel 40-47 and Zechariah 14 – we see they state the opposite to this. These readings swamp Jerusalem with countless strangers from throughout the nations. It is obvious to see, the Old Testament passages that Premillennialists present to support their position conflict with one another in every aspect. The term ‘the stranger[s]’ in the Old Testament always relates to the heathen or Gentile nations. They are the physically uncircumcised. Whilst Joel 3:15-19 prohibits the stranger entry onto the new earth, Premillennialists apply Zechariah 14:16 to the new earth, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Interestingly, the Premil team avoid the question (in our last post): How can there be strangers dwelling in the Land as described above, in a post Second Advent setting; when Joel 3 tells us that no strangers will pass through Jerusalem any more?

    In the Premillennial paradigm, “every one” yes “every one” – “that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem” are ushered into the Premillennial millennium. The fact that this evil coalition of nations is the very vehicle that is used to destroy “God’s people” seems to make no difference to our Premillennial brothers. This rebellious band of mortal rebels (of all nations) populate the new earth after Christ’s Coming as a seeming reward for their assault upon Jerusalem. In the Premillennial scheme they inherit the new earth, which other Scripture plainly states has been prepared for the righteous alone. Moreover, these wicked nations journey up to Jerusalem "from year to year to worship the King" despite being forbidden by many Scriptures

    Ezekiel 47:22-23 also says, “And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.” Here we have strangers who are “born in the country among the children of Israel” on ‘the millennial earth’ receiving an inheritance. Yet Joel 3:17 declares, “there shall no strangers pass through her any more”

    A very significant question that was also avoided by the Premil team was: Could you please compare and correlate the happenings that occur at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20, including the loosing of Satan, the beginning of Satan's little season, the rise of Gog and Magog, the resurrection of the dead, the subsequent general judgment, and the passing away of the heavens and the earth with them in Zechariah 14? Their silence on this and other simple questions re their so-called Old Testament proof texts shows the unreliable nature of their theology.

    Psalm 37

    Our Premillennial brethren also failed to address the following question re the wicked inhabiting the new earth, and the curse blighting the new earth in their last post: Does the meek and the wicked inherit the earth or just the meek?

    Conclusion

    Whilst the Premillennial team are swift to make big claims and throw false charges at the Amillennial team (as the opening third of their last response highlights), they are slow to address the salient theological issues in view. In their responses they avoid many important questions pertaining to the actual key passages they feel support Premillennialism, which if answered honestly and directly we feel would refute their interpretation. The ironic thing is, these are supposed to be the strong proof texts in the Old Testament that supposed illustrate “The Harmony of Scripture Regarding the Eschatological Reign of Christ” from their perspective. As has been demonstrated in our two responses to this Topic, these passages (as understood and located by our Premillennial brethren) conflict one with another. Moreover, the hyper-literal interpretation they place upon them totally undermines the clear consistent teaching of the New Testament. We are left wondering, if these supposed ‘strong passages’ don’t fit, how can their doctrine abide the numerous other passages that forbid the Premillennial theory.

    Like every other false doctrine, Premillennialism hits a brick wall in every key element pertaining to the new covenant theology. It takes us back to a system that has been eternally abolished. It is a teaching that is based upon the old physical, earthly, carnal, imperfect, temporal covenant instead of the new, true, perfect, spiritual, fulfilled, heavenly and eternal covenant. Although they boast of being “progressive” their theology reveals they are regressive in their understanding of Scripture and their hope for the new earth. Their earthly old covenant desires, hopes and teaching seem to have more in common with the Christ-rejecting beliefs of Jews in Christ’s day and ours than with New Testament Christianity.
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